Last week I offered all my brain could hold at once of the email conversations about soaking grains between Sally Fallon Morrell and Dr. Teri O’Brien of Australia. This week, there’s more…
(By the way, to get a context for all of this, be sure to see the list of all the soaking grains posts, starting with the basics and moving on to…well…to this stuff.)
My second response:
Thank you! This is a lot of food for thought; there is a rather large niche of people following the “Nourishing Traditions” style of food preparation for whom soaking grains is paramount. Did you catch the part about soaking in an acidic medium? A Tbs of whey, yogurt, buttermilk, vinegar, or lemon juice is always added to the water to soak the grains, which takes 12-24 hours to “neutralize the phytic acid” as Nourishing Traditions claims.
It sounds like a complicated issue! Thanks for the detailed reply; looks like I should do more research before believing in “soaked grains.” One last question: is there any reason soaking the grains in an acidic medium (sometimes already in flour form) would be harmful to digestion?
Dr. O’Brien’s response, with my attempts at synthesis in italics:
Yes, it is a bit complicated. To the last question first. The levels of acidity in foods or their relations where the acidity is due to vinegar or lactic acid or any other organic acid are quite moderate, expressed as a pH about 3.5-4.5. This is way below the acidity levels of the stomach ( each decrease in a pH unit is a 10 fold increase in the amount of available acid). So the stomach’s natural acidity due to hydrochloric acid (needed for pepsin activity) is about pH 1.0, between 1000 and a 10,000 times stronger than the pH that arises from organic acids.
At least this confirms that the pH of the acids recommended by Nourishing Traditions are the 4.5 pH that they say is required. After my research on phytase, the enzyme that dissolves phytates and releases phytic acid from the minerals our body needs, I found that its optimal pH for activity is, in fact, about 4.5. However, I wonder if adding just a Tablespoon of a pH 4.5 vinegar to a cup of water would dilute it too much. I need to buy some pH strips and test it! Anyone?
Now, that said, protracted soaking is going to do several things.
It will cause the insoluble forms of phytic acid that are there as CaMg double salts to dissolve slowly, but only where the soaking acids can enter the grains, i.e., where they are broken or cracked. Quite insoluble fatty layers prevent easy access of even water to dry grains over most of their surface, limiting uptake to special regions which eventually take up enough to allow germination.
Such mild acids as acetic acid (vinegar), lactic acid(yoghurt and perhaps whey), and citric acid (lemon) will only slowly penetrate the grains and of those, citric acid will be the most effective in dissolving the insoluble phytates, since in addition to its acidic properties, it is what chemists call a powerful chelating agent. It has the very well-developed character of grabbing on to minerals like Ca and Mg ( and Cu and Zn: see below) and pulling them off the phytic acid and putting them into solution as the Ca Mg chelate.
Cooks are familiar with this property of citric acid in at least two respects: when many fruits are cut and exposed to air, they will brown, a reaction that requires traces of Cu (copper). Lemon juice is added to fruit salad as it is being cut because the citric acid chelates the Cu and prevents the browning reaction. Cooks who are gardeners will know that we often use iron chelate (usually the citrate form) to feed citrus through its leaves to offset the fairly common yellowing that is due to iron deficiency. This a widespread way of feeding trace elements to horticultural species in plant production systems.
The mild acids will be hard pressed to actually dissolve the phytates. The grains must be cracked! i.e. soaking whole rice, barley, etc. is not going to be effective with the mild acidic environment. However – now that I understand that it’s phytase that does the dissolving, not the acidic environment itself, I wonder if Dr. O’Brien missed this entire point. The mild acid is only supposed to activate phytase to do the neutralizing. My new question becomes: Does phytase act on both whole and cracked grains?
Now, our interest in this food context is” what happens to the chelates or acid-dissolved phytic acid?” This is not the easiest question to answer because I am unaware of studies that have checked out how much comes out of grains that have been acid treated v. how much remains inside. I would speculate that the lemon juice would cause more to leave the grain during the soaking than the straight acids since phytic acid has a very strong negative charge from its 6 phosphate groups, which will hinder easy passage through living cell membranes. Let us assume that a lot leaves the grains: they need to be extensively washed to get rid of it or else it may well end up in the bread again, ready to bind minerals in our guts! Some research, or at least some careful examination of the literature of the last 20 years, is needed here to get more facts about this matter.
I found these sources:
“pH was the most important factor in reducing the content of phytic acid during bread making as phytic acid in doughs with pH 4.3–4.6 was more effectively reduced than in doughs with higher pH.” (source: Phytase activity and degradation of phytic acid during rye bread making by Merete Møller Nielsen · Marianne Linde Damstrup · Agnete Dal Thomsen · Søren Kjærsg˚ rd Rasmussen · Åse Hansen Eur Food Res Technol 2007)
All phytase activities are pH dependent with the highest activities being observed at a slightly acidic pH ( 5.1). Germination activates phytases, increasing the availability of P to the developing embryo. Genetic present in the wheat grain. The reduction in phytates was significantly higher when yeast was added to whole wheat bread dough, suggesting phytase activity in the yeast. However, the pH of bread dough (5.5–6.0) inhibited the activity of the phytases that are most active at a pH of 5.1. They reported that the lowering of dough alkalinity (lowering of pH) reduced the phytic acid levels of the bread by 83–96%. (source: Food Reviews International Phytic Acid by Lori Oatway a; Thava Vasanthan b; James H. Helm Field Crop Development Centre, Lacombe, Canada b Department of Agricultural Food and Nutritional Science, University of Alberta, Edmonton, Canada)
Soaking in mild acids probably will not kill the germ which with the outer endosperm layer (the aleurone, part of the bran) will undergo changes that mimic germination. Again, this would be a good area for research: the changes that are undergone in germinating wheat and barley have been thoroughly documented so there is a good reference point in literature to which I contributed in the 1970′s, against which to examine the changes in soaked grains, with or without washing, with or without lemon juice and so on. One might extend that to looking at their structure and composition after baking as well. Perhaps companies with something to gain from the outcome of these experiments might fund it!
One study fed real people wheat buns with various forms of phytates. One method of phytate reduction was to soak in water at a pH of 5.3 to activate native phytase. This was not effective in reducing phytates. Another method used phytase present in the bran, but then washed the bran with water. Here iron absorption increased threefold. Sadly, it was still only 1/5 the amount of iron absorbed when eating white flour rolls with no phytates at all. It seems that the phytates removed by phytase were able to reattach to the minerals, at least iron, when not washed five times with water. (source: Phytates and the inhibitory effect of bran on iron absorption in man from the American Journal of Clinical Nutrition)
Another unrelated effect of soaking is removal of the soluble sugars that abound in seeds. This includes the sugar raffinose, (a relative of cane sugar, sucrose,) but one which our guts cannot absorb and which forms late in grain maturation, often in high concentration. If not “soaked out” (it is especially rich in dry lentils), it enters our gut and cannot be absorbed, so it passes to the intestine where the bacteria have a field day, making lots of gas, with consequent flatulence and intestinal cramps. This phenomenon is well known for most lentils and other dry beans.
As to harming us from soaking, no reason that I can think of. The traces left behind from the organic soaking agents you mention will in most cases be absorbed and metabolized, and the acidity is way less than our stomachs produce.
Last week Dr. O’Brien challenged Fallon Morrell’s statement that soaking would reduce aflatoxins and increase certain vitamins. He asked for documentation:
Wherever phytates are present in wheat in dry grains, they are not there as free phytic acid, but as the CaMg double salt as highly crystalline “globoids”. To dissolve those by acids requires quite an effort and a fair dose of acid: to drive Ca and Mg from phosphate groups I would guess you would need a pH of at least 2.5, easily achieved in the stomach at pH 1, but for example, 1% vinegar is only pH 4.5. I do not believe the lysine figure: lysine occurs as part of a protein that is also rich in arginine, and these are not in the least bit soluble in acids such as to release their amino acids. There are large, highly insoluble reserves of niacin in wheat called “niacytin”: I don’t know how resistant they are to acid digestion, but they would release only niacin, just one of the B-vitamins, not ” B-vitamins”. I’ll check on aflatoxins, which of course are not common in cereals but are a real threat from badly stored peanuts. They are not destroyed by boiling so I’ll be amazed if they are by soaking, but let’s see the evidence.
As for “pathogens”: what pathogens? Stored grain contains some remnants of fungi that lived on the starch released when the out bran layers died as the grain ripened but these are not pathogenic to the plant or to us.
Fallon Morrell sent the following in response:
Here is something about the reduction of aflatoxins in wheat bread by sourdough fermentation
Another one on aflatoxins
The reduction of phytic acid by sourdough fermentationAnother one on phytic acid:
Note: all of these deal with sourdough or long fermentation, not soaking…
She also mailed me some copies of graphs/charts from research – in French, no less (good grief!).
They show:
1. Effects of fermentation on usable lysine – raised considerably in wheat, rice, millet, corn and a really drastic effect on oats. The grains fermented 6 hours at 71-77 degrees F. However, I don’t know the method of fermentation used. (Source: Hamad and Fields 1979 Journal of Food Science 44,2 456-459)
2. The increase in Vitamins B1 and B2 with fermentation with Rhizopus oligosporus (according to Wikipedia: “is a fungus of the family Mucoraceae that is a widely used starter culture for the home production of tempeh”) of wheat. There is little increase of either for the 1st 16 hours, and then the graph begins to climb rapidly until 43 hours.
After 24 hours, the vitamins increased: B2 from about 0.5mg/g to 3 and B1 from about 50 mg/g to 150. B2 is at almost 10 by 43 hours and B1 is above 400 at that time. However, my thoughts on the issue are that I don’t have Rhizopus Oligosporus to ferment with, AND the recommended “soaking” time in Nourishing Traditions is only 12-24 hours. Usually 12 for wheat products. This study ferments for days. Is this even relevant? This is my frustration with the sources of Nourishing Traditions: they’re only vaguely related to the actual practices recommended, they’re piecemeal (graphs alone without the methods, which are in French and difficult to track down!), and I’m still not seeing soaking, only fermenting and sourdough. (Source: Wang and Hesseltine 1966 Wheat Tempeh, Cereal Chemistry 43, 5, 562-570)
3. Reduction in phytate by fermentation: with yeast after 8 hours phytate is reduced by slightly less than half, with sourdough it is reduced almost to nothing. Again, sourdough is already recognized as a healthy way to prepare whole grains. This has little to do with soaking.
I sent the links (but not the mailed graphs) to Dr O’Brien, who is getting tired of me:
Unfortunately I cannot get access on line directly to the full papers, and would have to go to the original Journals, for which I do not have the time at present.
However, two matters:
The ability of some selected strains of lactic acid bacteria isolated from traditional sourdough ferments to remove aflatoxin B1 (AFB1) was studied in the present investigation. Isolates were grown for 48 h in broth containing a known concentration of AFB1 at 30°C. The AFB1 in the medium was determined for each strain with high performance liquid chromatography and calculated with the initial and final concentration of AFB1 after fermentation. Results showed that Lactobacillus strains could remove more AFB1 than Pediococcus and Leuconostoc strains and the reduction of the initial amount of AFB1 ranged from 1.80 to 44.89% AFB1 for all strains studied. Five strains of Lactobacillus rhamnosus, one strain of a L. lactis and one strain of L. casei reduced AFB1 by more than 20%. L. rhamnosus strain Lb50 reduced AFB1 by 45%. These findings suggest that sourdough strains of lactic acid bacteria can be exploited as an approach of detoxification of aflatoxins from foods.
Aflatoxins are among the most dangerous carcinogens ever identified, and reductions of 1.8-45% mentioned in these studies, while interesting, are not going to improve your health much if you have them in the flour. But do you have them in the flour? You will have them in badly stored peanuts, and hence in peanut products like peanut butter made from them. But the tests above use 48 hours of broth incubation to get these reductions: what has that got to do with conditions in a sourdough fermentation, and what levels of aflatoxins are in wheat flour? And what about the other kinds of aflatoxins than B1?
Me: Another seemingly unrelated point, since aflatoxin reduction isn’t all that desirable.
Second matter: it is time people got the facts and names straight here. Phytates refers to the double salts , the CaMg salts of heaxaphosphoinositol found in globoids in aleurone layers that end up in the bran fraction in milling. Phytic acid is the hexaphosphoinositol itself. Any process that breaks down the CaMg linkage releases the phytic acid into the medium: is that what you want? Phytates have already got their mineral binding capacity fully satisfied by the harmless Ca and Mg: phytic acid can bind anything available to it, including all divalent and trivalent ions. I think there is enormous confusion here about what would constitute a desirable outcome.
You are right to make them release data on soaking as opposed to fermentations.
If you’ve stuck with this post this far, congratulations! You’re as crazy as I am. 
What I’m finding here is this:
- Fallon Morrell doesn’t have justifiable, research-based evidence for the practice of soaking in a slightly acidic medium for 12-24 hours at room temperature (or above) that she recommends in Nourishing Traditions.
- Dr. O’Brien has completely missed the action of phytase on phytates, and I wish he hadn’t gotten so tired of my questions. I’d like to ask him more!
- There IS research in food science on these points. More on that next week!
If you missed the lively discussion in the comments at last week’s post, it’s a fun read. Please remember that I’m only challenging the soaking practice to find the truth about how and why one might want to soak. In the meantime, I’m soaking grains fairly faithfully myself, and I’m collecting anecdotal evidence on its effectiveness, which I would put right up there with the “real” research. Got a story of how soaking or sprouting helped your family? Please email me.
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Mostly very well done, from both sides. Lots of good information. But, please don’t ever put anecdotal evidence “right up there with “real” research”- this is a huge mistake, and shows a lack of understanding of the scientific method. Real research has lots of controls, and confounding variables are taken out (either a priori by eliminating them, or post hoc using statistical methods) as much as possible. In anecdotal evidence, those confounding variables are there in full force and may mask some effects or highlight effects that are due to the confounding variable. It’s a huge mistake to think that the plural of “anecdote” is “data”, please don’t do yourself or your readers this disservice.
.-= Lisa´s last blog ..Grown in My Heart adoption carnival =-.
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Katie Reply:
May 13th, 2010 at 4:23 pm
Lisa,
Katie
True, and I am much more in favor of hard science than many foodies….but if someone feels better by doing something, I can’t argue with that. It’s also truth that the human body is so complex that scientists have a hard time sorting out what is affecting what. There are many things we don’t yet know, even with the value of our scientific data. Sometimes we just have to go with “what works” and I want be open to that, too. Thanks for reminding me that perhaps my word choice was off! Keep reading and commenting – we need lots of scientists around here.
[Reply to this comment]
Lisa Reply:
May 13th, 2010 at 4:27 pm
No problem. I really enjoy your posts, and doing what works for you (generalized you, not specific) can be really helpful, it’s just not a good basis for extrapolation to a broader group of people. Keep asking the good questions on these debates- I love reading the different views and sources!
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tonya Reply:
May 14th, 2010 at 2:49 pm
Lisa, best comment I’ve ever read on a “real food” blog. Thank you for believing in the knowledge & power of science!
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Thank you for taking out the time to write this post. I’ve also been questioning the “soaking” method and after reading the lastest article in “Wise Traditions”, I felt like I was more confused than when I started.
As for now, I soak when I can and if every-once-in-a-while I forget I don’t worry about it. I also encourage my readers to do the same.
Again, thanks for working your way to the core of the issue and I look forward to reading more!
.-= Deliciously Organic´s last blog ..Baked Garden Tomatoes with Cheese =-.
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Katie Reply:
May 13th, 2010 at 4:20 pm
D.O.,
Katie
My pleasure! I’m just glad there are people out there to read this stuff!
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This guy has no idea what he’s talking about. Acid doesn’t get rid of phytic acid by drawing it out of the grain. It gets rid of it by activating grain phytase, which is maximally active between a pH of roughly 4.5 and 5.5. That has been shown over and over and over again, and this guy clearly has not read the papers. These two papers show that soaking in acid effectively degrades phytic acid by activating grain phytase:
http://www3.interscience.wiley.com/journal/118832477/abstract
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/17373819
These papers show that degrading phytic acid increases mineral absorption in humans:
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/2998440
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/3034044
There are many more where those came from.
He said that soaking in acid doesn’t make any difference because vinegar and whey are not as acidic as stomach acid. The pH of stomach acid is totally irrelevant, because by the time you eat it there’s no phytase left because the grains are cooked.
These are basic facts that have been known for decades. It has been shown over and over in numerous grains. This O’Brien guy is posing as an expert but he is totally ignorant. Please don’t give him a platform for his misinformation.
.-= Stephan´s last blog ..Saturated Fat and Insulin Sensitivity, Again =-.
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Thanks for this, Katie — and yes, I really did read most of it!
And I do believe strongly in anecdotal evidence — it may not follow the “scientific method” but there are biases and issues with EVERYTHING. And how are we supposed to know what questions to ask and what research to do if we don’t have some experience to show us what might be valid? Anyway.
I’ve never tried soaking (though I bet my buttermilk pancake recipe would lend itself quite well to that!) so I can’t comment on that. But as for sprouting…big difference. My daughter cannot eat unsprouted grains. We have tried store bought items (this week we tried because I was so busy and her eczema flared, diaper rash, diarrhea…the whole reaction), and we have tried homemade items with unsprouted grains from our local farm — same reaction. Then we sprout the grains and use the same recipe, and — NO reaction. That’s a reasonably controlled experiment. She can easily handle sprouted grains, and it allows us to eat a “normal” diet (she also doesn’t react to white flour commercial products, btw, so if we must eat out I typically will choose those). Something is in the bran of unsprouted grains that is bothering her, clearly. Something. I can even see it in her diaper! Not that you wanted to know.
.-= Kate´s last blog ..The Ultimate Diaper Bag =-.
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Katie Reply:
May 15th, 2010 at 2:03 am
Kate,
Katie
On the contrary…I DID want to know! That’s really incredible. Someday if/when you try soaking or sourdoughing, I want to be the first to know about the diaper results!
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Wow, lots to think about! I have to say, while Dr. O’Brien I’m sure is very knowledgeable, I can’t get past his self righteous tone! My goodness!
I have only used soaked grains once and noticed a little less gas and bloating. I need to try it some more to really know if it is better for my family. I tried a sourdough started, but grew mold! I will be trying it again though!
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Kate, exactly- anecdotal evidence is PRELIMINARY, not the same standard as peer-reviewed articles or scientific evidence. There is a place for anecdotes, just not next to real research.
.-= Lisa´s last blog ..Grown in My Heart adoption carnival =-.
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Such great information. I just stumbled upon Nourishing Traditions in the last month or so. Then found all the evidence against what she wrote. So I love that you are working so hard to try and glean the “truth” or as close as you can get to it. I appreciate the hard work you are putting in to this.
.-= Camille´s last blog ..How to (Easily) Wash Plastic Storage Bags =-.
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I am really enjoying reading along with you as you are looking for the best with regards to soaking. I am fairly new to all this soaking/fermenting stuff and have found the inconsistencies with information a little overwhelming and disappointing. I don’t have any anecdotal evidence really, I have soaked my porridge (oatmeal) but not noticed any difference. I’ve also soaked quinoa (or would it be considered sprouting since it started growing little tails?) but have not eaten it without soaking so that’s no help either. I’m very interested in the outcome of all of this!
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Hey Katie, with regards to your pH question about vinegar in water, let’s see what I can remember from first year chemistry! Vinegar or acetic acid is what is known as a weak acid (this has nothing to do with it’s pH btw). Weak acids are so called because they only partially dissociate in water. Strong acids completely dissociate in water and change form into free hydrogen ions and an anion. For example Hydrochloric acid (a strong acid) will dissociate into hydrogen ions and a chloride anion, the hydrogen then goes on to form H3O, which is hydronium…. Anyway, that’s another story.
Any chemists out there, feel free to correct me if I’m wrong.
Because weak acids do not easily dissociate in water, the pH remains much the same IF they are diluted in pure de-ionized, distilled water. Our tap water or even filtered water is not pure H2O so there will be some change in pH.
For the sake of this discussion, you can assume that your diluted acetic/lactic/citric acid still has a similar pH to the undiluted stuff…. I think
As to the rest of the discussion. I too wondered about the benefits of soaking of flour in yoghurt, buttermilk, etc because you then cook the whole gloop and any badies that have been soaked out of the flour (if indeed this does happen!) are still present in your mixture.
Personally, I’m using sourdough to ferment all my flour recipes. When I save up enough to buy a grain mill, I will sprout grains and make flour from those (we can’t buy sprouted flour here in Australia). For now I sprout wheat to make bulgar but I don’t use whole-grains otherwise.
Thanks again for all this research you are doing. It makes for very interesting reading and is giving me some very good ideas for a post-grad project!
[Reply to this comment]
Katie Reply:
May 15th, 2010 at 1:23 am
Emma,
I’ll be a g. pig for you!
I’m totally impressed! Oh, please, please tell me you’re going to use human guinea pigs and test their mineral levels after eating soaked and unsoaked, sprouted and unsprouted grains and see what’s really happening inside! That would make my week.
Thank you so much for sharing your knowledge —
Katie
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I wish science didn’t always seemingly contradict itself. On Stephan’s blog there were comments about a man named Bezian who is the sourdough guru. Apparently he ferments his breads for weeks to month, even after the bread is baked. Goodness!
Anyway, appreciate all the work, though I’m starting to wonder if we will ever really know…
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Katie Reply:
May 15th, 2010 at 1:19 am
Naomi,
Katie
Me, too. I just keep enjoying the eating and can’t worry about the end result TOO much!
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I am enjoying following these discussion Katie. I know that I follow the soaking and fermenting methods, and I seem to tolerate sourdough better than un-soured bread, but I still have some issues if I “abuse” it.
As for grians, I only really eat buckwheat, oats and quinoa otherwise – and I do soak them.
.-= Jenn AKA The Leftover Queen´s last blog ..Cultures, Fiddleheads, and Poutine =-.
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I did read the whole thing and I’m following this with interest. I did an informal test with my family a year ago and found that there is something about soaking that works in our favor. However for my crew (9 children) I have some serious cost issues to consider. I had already come to the conclusion that sprouting my grains was more cost effective for us, then I saw this series.
keep up the good research, because I am as crazy as you!
.-= Kimarie´s last blog ..Hello! I’m still here… =-.
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Katie Reply:
May 15th, 2010 at 1:17 am
Kimarie,
Sprouting because the grains get larger? I’m not sure I follow. 
Katie
It’s good to see you back! I had been wondering where you were.
[Reply to this comment]
Kimarie Reply:
May 15th, 2010 at 9:00 am
Thanks! When I said sprouting grains is more cost effective for us, I meant it is cheaper than all the buttermilk, kefir, and yogurt one has to use to soak things. I soak and sprout the grains, then dry them in my dehydrator until they are very dry – they shrink down again. Then I grind them into flour and store in fridge or freezer. When I want to bake, the flour is ready to use without a 12-24 hr wait.
.-= Kimarie´s last blog ..Hello! I’m still here… =-.
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Katie Reply:
May 16th, 2010 at 11:29 pm
Kimarie,
Now I understand. Have you taken into account the power used for the dehydrator? Sorry to be a devil’s advocate, but making my own yogurt is so inexpensive, and you can often use water and just a few Tbs whey from the yogurt to soak many things. Just a thought for you — Katie
[Reply to this comment]
Kimarie Reply:
May 18th, 2010 at 10:28 pm
Hi, Katie,
Please don’t apologize for being a “devil’s advocate”, that is fine! I have taken account the power used for the dehydrator. I’m actually composing a post (in my head so far) on how I soak grains for our large family… I can dry 3 gallons worth of sprouted grain in my 9-tray Excalibur dehydrator in about 12 hours or less. According to my dehydrator book, which is 10 years old, it costs 3 cents per hour to operate. Let’s just double that for today’s costs – at 6 cents per hour, that’s 72 cents for 3 gallons of dried sprouted grain. (I won’t even get into how I can either grind that into flour, OR roll it to make a very yummy cereal that my children like better than soaked rolled oats…)
I also make my own buttermilk, kefir, and yogurt from raw milk, so I’m already saving money on that as well. I even drain yogurt regularly to make yogurt cheese, and get the whey to use for soaking – so I get double the value for that.
For me, there’s also the “mental savings” of not always having to think 24 hours ahead of time. When I want to bake with my children, we don’t want to wait 24 hours – we want to mix, bake and eat right away!
There’s also the fact of not thinking about making sure I have all the soaking mediums on hand AND soak the grain 24-hours ahead of time.
We still soak a good many things, and enjoy some things soaked and others made with sprouted flour. I’ve recently acquired the Sue Gregg cookbook set, and am enjoying learning about using the blender to grind grain directly into the liquid ingredients and letting things soak in the blender.
Does this make sense? As I understand it, we have a choice between sprouting the grain or soaking the freshly ground flour for better assimilation. For me, it’s not about whether or not the soaking works, it’s about what works best for my family the majority of the time. No matter what method I use, I am no longer feeding my family unsoaked or unsprouted grain – we don’t like the results.
.-= Kimarie´s last blog ..Hello! I’m still here… =-.
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Katie Reply:
May 21st, 2010 at 10:05 pm
Kimarie,
Oh, my goodness, you should definitely do a tutorial on all that! I could learn a lot – and I really connect with you on the “mental savings” – baking when you want to bake. I am sometimes frustrated by the wait period with soaking.
I’d love to use your sprouting grains post as a guest post here, so be in touch (seriously!) when it’s finished!
Thank you!!
Katie
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I’d like to add to the thank yous on this and related posts. It’s fascinating to hear the chemical explanation for some of these practices.
I soak my beans and what few grains I eat (buckwheat, quinoa, etc). Don’t eat gluten, though, so I’ve never tried soaking wheat.
I’m so impressed with all the research you’re doing.
It’s frustrating, though, that trials, research, statistics, and data can be employed to prove any point, isn’t it? I think that when that’s the case, it *is* important to use anecdotal evidence to make a personal decision.
I never would have thought to eliminate gluten until I heard other peoples’ stories, which prompted me to try.
Thank you again.
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I am still wondering if “NT soaking” is really fermenting and if that adds a dimension to this whole process of “properly preparing grains” that O’Brien is not thinking about/aware of. Or maybe calling the fermented medium an “acidic medium” is acurate for our discussion. I dunno. I’m not a scientist!
It’s a little frustrating to think that this aspect of the NT program does not seem to be based on really sound research. When I learned NT, I bought into the whole system – I *wanted* to buy into the whole system b/c it presents a holistic view of food preparation and nutrition that really resonated with me. The basic philosophy of looking to what has worked traditionally amongst the healthiest people in the world as well as using *real* food grown in the way God intended makes SO MUCH SENSE! Make your food from scratch, the old fashioned way. It’s revolutionized my life! Why does this part of it have to be such a sticky widget?? I’m glad you are trying to shed light on it all! Thank you!
[Reply to this comment]
Katie Reply:
May 14th, 2010 at 3:07 pm
Sarah,
Katie
I can’t say it any better – I often referred to traditional foods as “resonating” with truth for me. I’m really hoping the science ends up backing NT up, maybe with some more clarity as to process…
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Of COURSE I read the whole thing! Then I thought “holy cow”. Then my head exploded. :>) Looking forward to the next installment!
.-= Lenetta @ Nettacow´s last blog ..Spring Cleaning Carnival – Get the Pesticides Out? =-.
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Thanks for tackling this situation. It is interesting to say the least and at times a little over my head but still good discussion.
After seven years of immense improvement of the health of my family of six from following WAP practices and finding no improvement from the “science/conventional community, I have a hard time with “facts and research”. I know it all has its place but it did nothing for us. My husband says that common sense from good people will go a lot farther then data from an “expert”. At least that has been our experience!
.-= Amy´s last blog ..Sunday Family Time =-.
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While science is fine and dandy, what I’ve come to realize PERSONALLY, is that science only shows part of the picture and part of the process, especially when it comes to the human body. I think anecdotal IS just as important to the science on an individual basis. To me science has always been the preliminary to my own health and healing and my anecdotal evidence has determined what is truly RIGHT. The world is full of “scientific studies” that are flawed, incomplete or flat out wrong, of which many people base their health practices on, and are consequently ill. INDIVIDUAL anecdotal evidence is to me JUST as important as scientific, because for ME this is what alway has made the puzzle pieces fit together, because no scientific data has ever had the complete answer.
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I have recently read “Nourishing Traditions” and began starting to researched sprouted grains, but I also found it a very confusing issue. Thanks for posting about the debate. This helps me research what is best for my family!
.-= Natural Mom´s last blog ..OWLFSH Challenge – Day 6 =-.
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This confirms (I think) some of my suspicions concerning the soaking process touted by Fallon. I think it goes something like this:
1). There is no question that sprouting and sourdoughing (is that a word?) grains and flours leads to an optimal outcome in regards to increase in nutrition and decrease in harmful anti-nutrients (including gluten).
2). Traditional very healthy tribes soaked and sourdoughed their grains.
3). (this is where there’s a leap) Therefore… soaking in an acidic medium for 12-24 hours is the modern version of making these foods more digestible.
I don’t necessarily agree, even though I mostly feel better when grains are soaked, even though I only eat oats.
I think sprouting and fermenting is optimal and perhaps soaking puts a fraction of a dent into the job that really needs to be done.
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Katie — Interesting post. There is food science to support Fallon’s general claim and to show that soaking works. Where her research falls short is in comparing the research on the different grains (e.g., she says in NT that rice does not have much phytic acid and yet it does; she doesn’t recognize the high phytase in wheat which affects the need to soak; she doesn’t recognize the role of phytase and its presence especially in fresh ground grain).
She also doesn’t provide research on the different methods of phytic acid reduction, leaving the reader thinking it’s all about soaking. Grains “soak” when bread is rising. If we use fresh ground wheat, do we need to use her soaked quick bread recipes? There are so many people trying to adapt quick bread recipes for soaking but it’s not always necessary and, frankly, the recipes just aren’t as good that way.
The botonist is just strange — I just came over here from the Wonderbread post.
Amanda
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Katie Reply:
June 7th, 2010 at 2:26 am
Amanda,
I have definitely been reading the science, and someday I’ll get time to post on that, too! Thanks!
I don’t think the Australian recognized the role of phytase, either.
Katie
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I have personal experience with soaking – my 2 year old son (who is now off gluten to heal his gut) has had very grainy poops since he began eating grains. I didn’t know why but didn’t think about it too much. It always took several wipes to get his bum even halfway clean, and then I would usually wash it too to get it all the way clean. He began having seizures, which through study, research, and prayer, I traced to a gluten intolerance. Shortly before his third seizure however, I decided to only give him grains that had been soaked or sprouted. The result? His poop changed COMPLETELY. Like, all of the sudden, I was able to wipe it off of his bum with one wipe…no need for a bath or several wipes to get it clean. Unfortunately, three days later, he had his third seizure and since then he has been gluten free so we can heal his gut. But, because of that experience, I have great confidence that eventually, he will be able to tolerate soaked/sprouted grains. I could not believe how immediate the improvement was. That right there is enough for me!
.-= kami´s last blog ..siblings =-.
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Katie Reply:
June 16th, 2010 at 9:22 pm
Kami,
Katie
Thank you so much for commenting; I honestly find stories like this fascinating, probably because I’m not very observant to figure out the changes in our own family. Do you mind if I add your story to my “anecdotes” post that I’m compiling? I would credit your blog if you’d like, or not. Thanks!
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Sure Katie! I’d love for you to include my story. You can link to my blog, no problem. Thanks!
.-= kami´s last blog ..siblings =-.
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Soaking Grains Exploration RETURNS! | Kitchen Stewardship // Jan 25, 2011 at 6:38 pm
[...] More Fallon/O’Brien Debate [...]
What I also wonder about is Weston Price in his book “Nutrition and Physical Degeneration” doesn’t mention anything about soaking flours, but strongly recommends freshly milled flours. He shows marvelous improvements in peoples diets when they replace white flour with fresh whole wheat flour. Why would he be getting these results if there weren’t benefits to whole wheat?– NT makes it sound like you’ll immediately suffer from mineral depletion if you neglect to soak. And why the deviation from Weston Price point this point?
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Katie Reply:
February 12th, 2011 at 6:18 pm
Triplel,
Katie
You may have given me the motivation to finally read (or skim through) that tome for myself, thank you!
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Just in case anyone is subscribed to this old soaking grains post, I wanted to let you know that I’ve reopened the issue with the goal of closing it at KS this Friday. There’s also a little Nutrimill grain mill giveaway going on.
Last fall we tested our grains, I did a recap post on soaking grains, measured pH, and have a soaked recipe ebook coming out for free in about a month.
If you’ve been away, come on back to the party!
Katie
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We shouldn’t learn to be dismissive about what our bodies our telling us though. “Science” tells healthy people they need to take statin drugs and cholesterol is bad. Science is not perfect. It’s all left up to interpretation either way.
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