My readers are keeping me on my toes!
Norpro Tinware Not what I Thought
I wholeheartedly recommended these Norpro tinware bread pans after my mom did the research for me at Christmastime. I loved the way they bake and was thrilled that I was using a safe baking surface.
Unfortunately, it seems that although my mom couldn’t find anything negative about tinware, these pans may be coated with something else. Sandra, an astute reader, emailed me wondering why the pans came with a “non-stick” label on them. I emailed Urban Homemakers and also a new advertiser for June, Marmee’s Bread Market, and asked if they knew anything about the Norpro pans.
Martha at Marmee’s had tried to get that information from the company already, and she said:
After many requests about what these pans consist of here is the information I have from my vendor:
“These loaf pans are made of steel and the nonstick coating is ILAG-NS-ILASLONAPTEF. We do not use Teflon.”
So whatever that mouthful is? All I know is I just replaced mine after over 11 years of use baking our daily bread in them as they were looking pretty beat up – but no coating was coming off! – they had been thru 1000′s of uses and they do not chip and the coating does come off like regular non-stick stuff does.” ”
When I googled that garbled term, the only place on the entire world wide web that mentioned it was at Marmee’s. I decided it had to be a typo and deconstructed it until I found Ilaflon, a non-stick coating produced by a Swiss company, Ilag Industries.
I honestly read some websites “auf Deutsch” for a while, with my limited German, until I finally found the same ones in English (relief!).
Although I didn’t (yet) find anything unsafe about Ilaflon, I also didn’t find any testing at all. It seems to be a new product, which sends up red flags for me. Teflon was new and untested once upon a time, and now there are some studies that point to dangers like toxic fumes at high heat and leaching carcinogenic chemicals. *sigh*
Ilaflon also seems to be used more often in handguns than in cookware, according to my Swagbucks search, another not-so-comforting fact.
So even though I’m not positive that the Norpro tinware pans are coated in Ilaflon, it seems as though they have some coating. We were all hoping the “non-stick” quality came from the little dents in the pan’s surface, but if the company provided Martha with an explanation of a coating, one can deduce that there is, in fact, a coating, yes? UPDATE: We got an answer! The pans are coated in Ilaflon, see comments for the full quote.
Here’s some info even on the “tinware” aspect of the pans from Urban Homemaker:
“Originally, 20 years ago when I started selling these bread pans I was told they were tinware. Somewhere over time they were manufactured from raw steel to make them sturdier with a non-stick coating, I did not know this until today after contacting Norpro. (Katie’s note: The company may not have changed their pans, but UH simply was given the wrong information long ago.)
My apologies for doing my research after the fact and not before.
Although I love the way these pans bake bread – the best around because they’re so narrow for a super rise – I can’t honestly say that they’re a safe material to use for food. I’m also thoroughly unimpressed that Norpro’s communication is so poor that they can’t answer simple questions from their vendors. If a company is truly concerned about the environment or consumer health, they are ready with a quick explanation because they’ve already done the research for themselves.
To bring us back into balance, here’s a lovely perspective from Marilyn of Urban Homemaker:
I believe it is virtually impossible and unrealistic to think we can control ALL potential harmful materials that we come into contact with, nor determine accurately the degree of risk of untested materials and that it is entirely possible that one can make the control and elimination of all potential “toxins” become an “idol” in our lives as we make ourselves into detectives.
Since the bread dough is not being stirred or scaped in the pans such as a stew being cooked in a stock pot with a tomato base, I feel the risk is minimal and one I’m willing to take.
Thank you, Sandra, for pushing me to research these pans further, and thank you, Martha, for having part of the answer ready at hand, as well as continuing to try to contact Norpro. Great customer service from Marmee’s Bread Market!
Now, good kitchen stewards…how are we to analyze this information? I worry that particularly since I leave that sourdough bread dough in the pans for 6-8 hours, any leaching, especially with the acidity, would be enhanced. Do I keep using the pans? Do I set them aside? Is there more research to be done?
An update on Eco Lunch Gear’s bags
When I announced Eco Lunch Gear, as a new KS sponsor two weeks ago, a reader corrected my claim of “no plastic,” because the bags do contain nylon, a plastic. I learn something new every day! Since that comment remained on the post, I wanted to make sure I allowed Tina, the owner of Eco Lunch Bags, a chance to respond:
This is the first for me to have the BPA question brought up. We have been doing research on BPA (Bisphenol A) and found that it is primarily in polycarbonate (hard plastic). There are so many different types of products where nylon is used. We have not found BPA in the making of the fabric nylon in which we use.
The nylon has a polyurethane coating – this is on the side that faces the cotton layer, not the side that the food touches. According to the most recent information from the CPSIA (Consumer Product Safety Improvement Act) the nylon has been found to be inherently free of lead & phthalates and therefore do not require testing. Our nylon has been tested and is free of lead & phthalate.
I just talked to my supplier and they have had tests done and there is no BPA in the nylon.
Here’s how I would break down the situation:
- These bags are so very much better than disposable plastic baggies, both for health and environmental reasons.
- The nylon doesn’t even touch the food! Oops. I misread Tina’s words. She helped me clarify that the polyurethane lining on the nylon doesn’t touch the food, but the nylon does. Still…I don’t think sandwiches would stay fresh without some sort of airtight covering, and I like the easy wash and use factor.
- It would be even better if there wasn’t nylon involved.
- However, nylon doesn’t have BPA in it.
- I do in good conscience continue to recommend the bags (have I mentioned they go right in the washing machine and hold up really well??), but I’m also curiously on the lookout for an alternative made of 100% cotton or other non-plastic material, perhaps with a drawstring close. Know of any companies that make such a thing? Let’s get them involved at Kitchen Stewardship!
It’s good to have this community of people willing to pool their knowledge and do a little research and questioning to help us all increase our awareness. Thanks for all your good insight, dear readers!
A Materials Question for You…and an Update on the Big Giveaways
I feel a little “real food geek” awkward when I say things like: “Does anyone think they won’t find a use for those big tins that were part of our swag? I have 100 pounds of grain to store…” Most people at Gleek Retreat last weekend responded with, “100 pounds of WHAT?”
I have been trying to figure out where to find containers big enough to get my wheat berries out of their paper sacks since I got the Nutrimill from Pleasant Hill Grain, even though I kind of like storing in paper because it’s perfectly safe. I’m just wondering if any mice will ever be happy I store in paper, too, you know?
These tins (yes, I got someone to forfeit theirs, so I have a matched set) seem perfect:
Here’s my question, and really, I don’t even want to know the answer: Do you think they’re probably made of aluminum? If so, what’s better – some grains touching the aluminum or all the grains being in a paper sack?
Remember – you’ll get a chance to win a brand new Nutrimill grain mill this fall!
I’ve tried out the Excalibur dehydrator, too, and oh, my, is it huge! I’ll be posting on that soon, and hopefully you’ll have your crack at good luck with a giveaway of another brand new Excalibur, too! As soon as we hit 4,000 readers, it’s a go! (I wanted to assure the sponsor, Cook Ware’s Plus, adequate reach since they were giving such a large prize; hope that makes sense!) The Feedburner button says over 3550 today, so keep Facebooking and spreading the word. It would be great to kick off the giveaway week before summer harvest truly gets under way.
*Be sure to enter both giveaways this week, for Stephanie Langford’s Real Food on a Real Budget and the budgeting software You Need a Budget.*
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Kitchen Stewardship is dedicated to balancing God’s gifts of time, health, earth and money. If you feel called to such a mission, read more at Mission, Method, and Mary and Martha Moments.
This post is a tangled web of people who advertise with me, those who have or are sponsoring giveaways, and a few with whom I’m not affiliated at all. See my full disclosure statement here.
For grain storage – how about a paper bag INSIDE the tins? Then if they’re aluminum, the grains won’t touch it.
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I think you made a mistake saying the nylon in the EcoBags doesn’t touch the food. According to their website, the nylon is the liner. But maybe I’m not understanding how they go together?
Aluminum is not magnetic. You can test it with a fridge magnet. You could always keep the grain in paper, and the whole thing in the canister. Use the paper like a liner.
.-= Mary Ann´s last blog ..Simple Woman’s Daybook January 18, 2010 =-.
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Katie Reply:
May 31st, 2010 at 12:04 am
Mary Ann,
Katie
You’re right! My mistake – it’s the polyurethane coating that doesn’t touch the food, but the nylon does. Still BPA and phthalate free though. Thanks!
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re: ILAG-NS-ILASLONAPTEF.
The acrostic for Teflon’s long chemical name is PTFE. Notice the last 4 letters of the coating in question. Yes, they don’t used Teflon on their product, since that is a trade name, but they do use a generic near copy of Teflon. I’d avoid using it since it is still and fluoro-ethylene product.
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Katie Reply:
May 27th, 2010 at 2:26 pm
Steve,
Katie
Aha! Good detective work. Thank you for adding another layer (or peeling it back?) for this story.
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I’d keep the grain in the paper bags and then put the whole thing into the tin.
.-= Cori´s last blog ..homemade chem-free "beauty" supplies revisited =-.
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(There are a number of links i’ve posted at the bottom of this, but you can do your own search & turn up lots of info.)
Ok, not many folks are aware of how many things fluoride is used to produce.
If you check Wikipedia, it will list some of the things that contain fluoride, but the implications there are that everything is fine & dandy & quite safe. Wiki states that the fluoride in non-stick coatings is inert. (My personal opinion is that Wikipedia is very biased in favor of big industry & the pharmaceutical companies. http://www.hawkeshealth.net/community/showthread.php?t=4071&highlight=wikipedia)
Fluoride is VERY toxic. It falls between arsenic & lead in its toxicity.
Fluoride is an endocrine disruptor, & may be linked to problems with thyroid, the pineal gland, & infertility issues. It may possibly be involved in disruptive behaviors in children & other brain-related problems. Too much fluoride makes the teeth & bones brittle.
There have never been safety studies conducted on fluoride in the water system. There were never studies done on the efficacy of fluoride on tooth decay before adding it to the water system. The fluoride added to the water is an industrial by-product & if it is spilled, it has to be handled as “hazardous waste.” A few dentists now will even admit that ingesting fluoride does nothing for the teeth, & (the ones who believe in it still) the only benefit of fluoride is topical application when children are young & their teeth still emerging.
Personally, i am extremely sensitive to fluoride. My mother gave me fluoride drops as a child & all my baby teeth rotted out of my mouth. My adult teeth are some of the ugliest you’ve ever seen. I’ve been having chronic fatigue issues since childhood, but it got really bad after my teeth were cleaned & a fluoride treatment when i was 16.
The doctors convinced me i was “just depressed” & gave me anti-depressants that were (many of them) fluoride-based.
Beginning in 2004, i began cleaning up my life & my diet to try & be healthier. I got rid of all non-stick items, i began using water/vinegar, etc., for cleaning, i eat mostly organic foods, i changed personal care products (shampoo, lotions, etc.), & i was able to stop using (prescription) drugs. I’m no longer “depressed” but my functioning didn’t improve. I still hadn’t made the fluoride-connection.
Three years ago i was given Cipro for an infection. Yes, i now know it is fluoride-based. I’ve never recovered from using it & my functioning is very poor. I’ve gone from a pre-Cipro functioning of 50 – 70 (out of 100) to post-Cipro of 20 – 40. The cleanses for fluoride & other toxins haven’t helped.
It appears i’m very sensitive to fluoride, but i don’t believe it is good for anyone. I’m sorry this is so long, but i feel very strongly on this subject. I don’t want anyone to have to be where i’m at, & if something as simple as not using certain pharmaceuticals or non-stick products will help, then why not err on the side of caution? It MIGHT be that these things won’t effect you or your families, but do you want to take a chance?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fluoride
http://www.slweb.org/ftrcfluorinatedpharm.html
http://www.fluoridealert.org/health/thyroid/
http://www.thyroid-info.com/articles/shamesfluoride.htm
http://www.hawkeshealth.net/community/showthread.php?t=2502&highlight=fluoride
http://www.zerowasteamerica.org/Fluoride.htm
http://www.mercola.com/article/links/fluoride_links.htm
.-= Kathryn´s last blog ..Mostly pics =-.
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I did a really long comment here with many links because i’m passionate about the fluoride issue. My reply seems to have disappeared & i’m not going to recreate it.
So, let me just say that fluoride is used to make non-stick surfaces (& many pharmaceuticals are made from fluoride), although manufacturer claims are that it is inert. Fluoride is very toxic. It is classified as a hazardous waste if it is spilled.
It is possibly indicated as a neurtoxin, in endocrine disorders, in brain-functioning (learing disabilities), & many other issues.
I personally have been negatively effected by it. If you are interested, here is a starting link: http://www.apfn.org/THEWINDS/archive/medical/fluoride01-98.html
I have tons of other material on how dangerous fluoride is, so you can email me if you want the info. Or simply do a search.
It MIGHT not be dangerous for some/most people, but why take a chance?
.-= Kathryn´s last blog ..Mostly pics =-.
[Reply to this comment]
Katie Reply:
May 28th, 2010 at 3:43 pm
Kathryn,
Katie
Thank you! I found it, so it’s back now!
PS – If you’d like to guest post when I tackle flouride/water, I’d love it!
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I went for glass bread pans. My muffin pan has a nonstick coating, but I always use paper liners. That just leaves my cookie sheets and pizza pan with the nonstick coating touching the food. I do what I can, as do we all. The issue with Teflon is not leaching, but wearing off and toxic fume release under high heat. Baking uses less heat than a stovetop burner on “high” and, as Marilyn said, you aren’t scraping the surface. I’d stick with the bread pans you have until you have a reason to change.
I doubt the tins are made of aluminum. I’d bet they are made of thin steel instead. You can tell by the color . Aluminum is a “whiter” color than steel. Think of the difference in color of an aluminum soda can versus a canned food can or stainless steel pan. Aluminum is too soft a metal for a tin that large, too, judging by how thin the sides appear to be.
My wheat is still in the paper bag, sitting in a plastic icing bucket I got from the bakery at the supermarket.
.-= rhiamom´s last blog ..Making Yogurt =-.
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Katie Reply:
May 28th, 2010 at 3:34 pm
Rhiamom,
Katie
I like your balanced advice. I do have glass pans, too, so maybe I should try a side by side rise test.
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In my life before kiddos, I majored in Materials Engineering with a focus in polymer science, and I’m going to give you my $0.02. The coating on the bread pans, based on the website you linked to, is PTFE, poly tetrafluoroethylene. Teflon is simply a registered trademark of DuPont, and the other coating is probably almost exactly the same thing, chemically speaking, although it might be applied differently, hence the different name. One of the concerns with teflon is flakes coming off and getting in the food, so as long as you don’t cut the bread in the pans, I would think it’s fine (personally I use teflon coated bakeware). It is not a material that leaches, as far as I know, unlike polycarbonate. As for the sandwich bags, it sounds like the nylon is on the inside, so it would touch the food, but the polyurethane would not. I guess if you are trying to avoid synthetic storage materials, it’s really not too different from using a tupperware, which is what I use because it keeps sandwiches from getting smooshed in my backpack.
I worry a lot less about solid items than liquidy ones when it comes to storage, but that’s just me.
This post reminds me that I need a new bread pan though… mine is indeed starting to flake off coating bits. Yuck!
.-= Monica´s last blog ..Travel Crafts — Part 2! =-.
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Katie Reply:
May 28th, 2010 at 7:31 am
Monica,
THANK YOU for that 2 cents! Here’s another couple pennies from the Norpro company, who got back with one of my vendors:
“The Ilaflon is a Swiss company called Ilag. They coat different things with their brand of non-stick. We have had them coating these pans for the last 10 years. We have never had a complaint about the non-stick peeling off. They will not give me their actual recipe for their non-stick.”
Four cents – we’ll all be rich in no time!
Sounds like if one is avoiding Teflon, one should find a stainless steel or glass bread pan, but if you’re not afraid to use Teflon in certain circumstances, these pans are still GREAT for bread baking.
Thanks, everyone!
Katie
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I read an tiny article in Sunday’s Parade (or that other magazine in the paper) which stated that there are around 80,000 (!!!) chemicals used in the manufacturing of products/goods, etc. Only 2,000 of those chemicals have been tested because our gov’t regs assume that a chemical is SAFE UNLESS PROVEN OTHERWISE! That is just pure craziness. It did make me consider that there is no way to completely eliminate chemicals in our daily life. I can only do my best to minimize our exposure. But, it’s still frustrating!
.-= Camille´s last blog ..Preparing For Summer =-.
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i agree, line with paper if you’re not sure.
i’ve never seen one of these big tins made of out aluminum, only steel.
Did you try the magnet test? Just see if a fridge magnet will stick to it.
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I recently got a stoneware loaf pan, and I love it. My bread rises and releases wonderfully in it.
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Katie Reply:
May 28th, 2010 at 3:33 pm
Michelle,
I thought about stoneware, but my mom pointed out that they wouldn’t stack nicely, and with my “petite” kitchen, I couldn’t afford the space.
Katie
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If you’re interested in bags that are just cotton, http://www.wallypop.com has unbleached muslin produce bags you could use. I love them for bulk bin items. But your sandwich would likely turn into a crouton by lunch time on a warm day! Just like EcoLunch, her sandwich bags are laminated cotton (polyurethane coating). Polyurethane doesn’t contain phalates or BPA, so it’s probably pretty safe. And if you look around her website she’s pretty darn crunchy (they’re paper free, even in the bathroom!). I tried one time to bring sandwiches and snacks in glass to the Children’s Museum- that was the heaviest lunch I’ve ever carried in my life! So for now I’m using my old plastic containers that are made of polypropylene. As far as plastics go, polypropylene is pretty safe. But maybe some day when I have some extra money, I’ll invest in some of those beautiful stainless steel snack containers.
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Sorry, that’s http://www.wallypop.net
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i don’t buy any non-stick anything. i use the good old sticky stuff and coat it with oil/butter/grease
i get most of my bakeware from chicago metallic (but have a bajillion loaf pans from my great grandmother) so if i was looking for new bread pans i’d get these: http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00004R91S?ie=UTF8&tag=leismo-20&linkCode=as2&camp=1789&creative=390957&creativeASIN=B00004R91S
.-= Carrie´s last blog ..Northern California’s First Sprouts Store Opens June 2nd =-.
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amanda Reply:
June 12th, 2010 at 1:42 pm
so is the aluminum in the CM pans not a concern?
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Katie Reply:
June 14th, 2010 at 5:17 pm
Amanda,
I’m not sure what “CM pans” you mean. ? Katie
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Sew a couple of canvas bags and toss your grains paper sacks and all into the canvas bags. If you use a heavy canvas, I think the mice will have more trouble than with the paper, you’ll avoid the concern of aluminum all together!
[Reply to this comment]
Katie Reply:
May 28th, 2010 at 3:28 pm
Amanda,
Ah, sewing? Did you say sewing? Can I do that on the computer?
I have a sewing machine, but simply no time. I’ll risk mice!
Katie
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I’d keep the grain in the paper bag and put the entire paper bag in the tin. I do a simlar thing when I store my flour in my pantry. The shelves aren’t very deep to store everything in fancy glass jars like Martha Stewart. Using smaller jar like mason jars aren’t big enough to hold an entire a bag of whole wheat flour. I don’t have extra room to store the rest. I keep my fours and grains in the paper bags, fold them over and close them with a chip bag clip or an office binder clip and put them in a plastic shoebox type container with a lid. I stack the plastic boxes 2 wide and three deep on two shelves in my pantry. Air tight. Pest tight. And food doesn’t touch the plastic.
.-= Condo Blues´s last blog ..Ditch the Disposables: Try Reusable Produce Bags =-.
[Reply to this comment]
Katie Reply:
May 28th, 2010 at 3:26 pm
CB,
Brilliant on the shoeboxes!
I would do that, but the tins will only hold maybe half a bag. 50 pounds of grain is some SERIOUS heft!
Katie
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We’ve used those big tins to store rice, wheat berries, dry beans, etc. I get them at the thrift store for a few dollars each. The liner idea is a good one if you’re worried about the aluminum- I’ve never thought of it.
[Reply to this comment]
An update: The magnet test was a success! Sticks. So, no aluminum. That’s good news, so I think I will use them to store the grain now. Thanks for all the great advice!
Katie
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Kathryn,
I’m so sorry your comment got hung up in my spam filter. It will grab anything with over 3 links, and I don’t check it daily. Just email if this ever happens again.
I am SO interested in this subject, because God has just been laying it on my heart that water needs to be my next big issue to tackle. Some say flouride = no big deal, but I think if I’m going to invest in a big fancy (expensive) filter and the time it will take to manage the system, I’m going to get anything questionable out, darn it. I’m copying all your info into my research folder for when I get to it this summer. Thank you SO much for sharing your story!!
Katie
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Thanks for addressing the nylon question
Life without plastic makes a sandwich bag that is 45%organic cotton and 55% hemp. I got one and it looks nice. I haven’t used it yet.
.-= kanmuri´s last blog ..Plasticless life =-.
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did you look at any other tinware? like these http://baking-muffins.kaiserbakeware.com/Tinplate-Loaf-Pan-12-inch-plu7006106410.html from the website, they mention NO coating of anykind, other then the tin.
[Reply to this comment]
Katie Reply:
June 14th, 2010 at 5:17 pm
Amanda,
Katie
Good find! Those look just like mine minus the coating; I bet my mom’s research would apply to them. Thanks!
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I know this entry is several months old, but wanted to add that you can always use cast iron if you want non-stick without chemicals. Properly seasoned and cared for cast iron bakes woderfully and will last for generations. Some shapes will even stack, but they can get very heavy, so store low!
[Reply to this comment]
Katie Reply:
September 15th, 2010 at 6:50 am
Michelle,
Katie
That’s a great point. I’ve finally gotten my cast iron to the point where it’s non-stick, and I love it. Have you seen bread pans, though? I haven’t…
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Yeah, there used to be as camping/outdoor store near me that carried them. Sadly, it went out of business. Lodge makes them ( https://secure.lodgemfg.com/storefront/product1_new.asp?idProduct=4106 ) and Amazon carries a few. The reviews are very helpful there. I hope you find one you like!
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Where are you on the Norpro pans now? Do you have another recommendation?
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