Michael Pollan came on stage carrying bags of processed foods. He proceeded to pull out “edible food products” and do a little stand up comedy about all the corny ingredients in them, and how creative the food manufacturing industry is getting to keep coming up with new products that we then think we need to eat.
Donielle and I could almost see him, see?
It was pretty exciting being back at my old alma mater, in a beautiful theater where I watched Footloose and Phantom of the Opera with my husband while we were dating, watching one man lecture for an hour and a half about food. I settled in with my pen (What? No keyboard? My hands wanted to revolt!) and proceeded to furiously take 8 dense pages of notes.
Pollan started out with that food, picking on the monoculture of corn, the impossible-to-pronounce ingredients and the ludicrous nature of cereal being sold in straws in the first place. Classic Michael Pollan, if you’ve read The Omnivore’s Dilemma.
Since Michigan State is a big agriculture school, he also placed himself firmly on the side of farmers by answering the question explicitly: “Am I a friend or foe of agriculture?” He said, “America’s farmers hold the key to solving two of the most critical problems – the healthcare crisis and the global environment, both of which are food problems.” It is his hope that MSU will design agriculture to solve these problems – to restore food to a guarantor of health.
Pollan went on to define some terms:
- American paradox: that we obsess about food constantly, but have the highest rates of obesity and diabetes in the world.
- orthorexics: an unhealthy obsession with healthy eating
- nutritionism: a problematic ideology of food…nutritionism says that:
- the key to understanding any food is the nutrients it contains. Foods are the sum of nutrient parts.
- because nutrients are invisible and slightly mysterious, our relationship with food must be mediated by experts.
- it divides the world into good and evil nutrients.
My smug smile over being on the same side as Michael Pollan as he railed against Splenda with fiber was starting to slide, and I squirmed in my seat. I never expected to hear Pollan describe me and my food philosophy, at least not until he started talking about the good guys.
Have I been duped by nutritionism? Do I look at food as a vehicle for nutrients?
Well. Hard to lie here, since all my nutrient talk is in text, on the Internet, for everyone to see. I was uncomfortably surprised.
I’ve been reading Kristen Michaelis’s real food nutrition textbook for homeschool students (or adults, quite honestly), and she starts right out citing Pollan’s “nutritionism” and touting the value of the whole food, not the nutrients contained therein. (It’s a refreshing departure from classic science and nutrition texts that rely on the Food Pyramid alone. If you’re homeschooling bright middle schoolers or high school students, you may want to take a look.)
Pollan consistently gives a good reminder, to trust in the value of whole foods, eat like your grandmother ate and stop counting each nutrient all by itself. I’m still going to eat my yogurt because it has probiotics, though! (Maybe my discomfort is why I picked on him last time I wrote about him.)
Michael Pollan had five more pages of quality stuff to say, and someday I’ll share the middle of the talk with you, too. For today’s Go Local! Challenge purposes, though, I want to skip to the Q&A part of the evening.
I was just giddy when the moderator asked my question for Michael Pollan to answer. I knew it was a doozy!
“Is it possible to feed the world on a grassfed, Salatin-style paradigm? Can factory farms make improvements to be more eco-friendly? Is there a middle ground?”
For your contemplation this weekend, here is Pollan’s response, slightly paraphrased because I don’t know shorthand:
I don’t know if sustainable agriculture can feed the world, but I do know conventional agriculture hasn’t done it yet. It is a myth that Joel Salatin is less productive than conventional agriculture. His 100 acres of grass and 400 acres of unfarmable land generate so much food from solar-driven energy. The amount of food is astounding: 50,000 dozen eggs, for starters.
The hard part isn’t making small farms productive, it’s that farming is hard labor. One farmer has 140-150 people to feed.
The challenge is to figure out how sustainable agriculture can feed the world. It’s not a choice – we will run out of fossil fuel – it’s by default unsustainable and can’t last.
What do you think? Is big agriculture as it’s practiced today by definition unsustainable? If so, what’s the solution?
(Did you see how close we are? Only 39 more people need to subscribe to KS for the Excalibur dehydrator giveaway from Cook Ware’s Plus to happen! Woo hoo! I’ll start prepping my dehydrator posts for next week, okay? Spread the word!)
Catch up on the Go Local! Challenge here.
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I think the solution lies in getting people back to farms to DO that hard work! Particularly in the U.S., we have too many farms where a few people “manage” a huge amount of land by driving machines and spraying chemicals; farm jobs that are still done by hand are so unappealing (partly because of the chemicals!) that citizens don’t want to do them and labor is imported. Meanwhile, we have all these citizens who need more exercise, many of whom are unemployed in the current economy. So why not put them to work farming the right way? I think this idea is catching on, on a small scale, but I’d like to see it get bigger–factory farms starting over with a new model to grow healthier food and employ more people.
The way our world food system is now is like a mother of eight saying, “But I have to feed my kids mac&cheese and Koolaid because that’s what we can afford at Walmart,” while their yard is just lawn and the kids are sprawled in front of TV. Get them out there sheet mulching the yard, and they could be producing 24 food crops next summer! (Those links go to my brother’s site. I’m going to see his garden for the first time next week, and I’m excited!)
.-= ‘Becca´s last blog ..Why We Love Community-Supported Agriculture =-.
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Andrea Reply:
June 12th, 2010 at 1:11 am
That is pretty much the best synopsis of the crisis I have read. Well thought and put Becca. Now get out there and start planting!!
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Katie Reply:
June 14th, 2010 at 4:30 pm
Becca,
Katie
You make some – really – excellent points. We get rid of so many jobs for efficiency, and then we have all these problems with food supplies and government monies needed to feed the hungry. I would love to see your brother’s garden!
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Tweets that mention Michael Pollan on "Can Grassfed Feed the World?" | Kitchen Stewardship -- Topsy.com // Jun 11, 2010 at 10:50 am
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FAscinating, I wish I could see him talk. I think the farmers who currently produce our meat could change a lot of things to make their practices better for the animals and the environment. This would go a long way in improving the situation – but I don’t think they want to change.
.-= Jennifer´s last blog ..Homemade Maple Butter =-.
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Grass-fed could feed the world if people would stop consuming meat like carnivorous dinosaurs!!!
.-= Ashley´s last blog ..Car Seat Expiration Dates =-.
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Beth Reply:
June 11th, 2010 at 11:46 pm
I absolutely agree with this. Don’t get me wrong, I am a meat LOVER but I do think we eat way too much of it here in the U.S.. Then again, I am pretty sure we eat too much of everything!
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Primal Toad Reply:
June 12th, 2010 at 10:02 am
That is certain. We do eat too much of everything. If everyone learned how much food there body truly needs then sustaining the world with grass fed beef would be a whole lot easier.
.-= Primal Toad´s last blog ..Primal Fitness: Simple Fit Workout Day 2 =-.
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I agree I wish I could have been there! I read the entire document of what was said online, but I would love to see him in person sometime.
I like you question about Salatin’s method being sustainable or realistic as a method of production for a long term solution. In my opinion, what really needs to happen is that people need to be able to take more responsibility for themselves and their own food production. I’m not saying that everyone needs to own a farm, but having small gardens and taking an active interest in where you food comes from goes a long way towards contributing to the food debate. Just like in WWII people had small “victory gardens” I think the same ideas should be implemented today. People are fighting in the middle east to support our addiction to oil, and for what really? My husband is in the military and went to Afghanistan for over a year (and slated to go again next year), so I feel a personal connection to the issue of oil dependency. I know that’s not really what this post is about, but I think it all has a connection, and the government also plays a part in massive corn and soybean subsidies that make it more lucrative for farmers to grow those crops.
But that’s another discussion for another day! Thanks for sharing your experience seeing Michael Pollan!
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Katie Reply:
June 14th, 2010 at 4:41 pm
Lauren,
Katie
You are absolutely correct – anything we write about agriculture and food is directly connected to oil. It is because of the way we grow our food, which is exactly what I was writing about. Thank you for bringing another personal face and added layer for all of us to remember!
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Thank you ‘Becca for sharing what your brother is doing in his yard – it’s really fascinating. I also liked the commentary on recycling the cardboard. I personally don’t have a problem with recycling the cardboard at home because then I KNOW it will be reused. Putting it into curbside recycling is an unknown quantity.
Katie – I don’t think the current big agricultural practices are sustainable. Unfortunately, most people don’t know enough about the effect of big agriculture on our environment. They also don’t know that we’re subsidizing big agriculture through our tax dollars, a rabbit trail that I would love to research sometime. I’d love to know what the true cost of conventional meat is versus local, grass-fed.
.-= Barb@My Daily Round´s last blog ..7 quick takes friday =-.
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I have been spreading the word, I just signed on to your site, but already would like to spread the word. Hope I win!!
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Great blog! Thanks for sharing your thoughts.
Back to nature is the way!
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I wish I could have been there!
I do agree that far too often I find myself getting trapped in the “nutritionism” of food. I have to remind myself to not get caught up in all the information and, instead, enjoy feel whole food (and life).
.-= Robin´s last blog ..The Basics of Sitting: Part I =-.
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I think that for sustainability to work, it can’t be one farmer feeding 140-150 people. We have to do a share of feeding ourselves by becoming more self-reliant. To take the nutritionism idea a bit further – it’s not just thinking we need an expert to tell us what to eat it’s thinking that we need an expert to provide our food. I think it’s great that you are doing so many posts on gardening. We need to start tucking edible plants into our landscape and even removing so many of the inedible plants and trees we have to make room for growing more of our own food. A really fun and interesting book I’ve been reading is Farm City by Novella Carpenter.
.-= marcella´s last blog ..Baby Quilt =-.
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Pollan’s talked about this before, in The Omnivore’s Dilemma. He calls for a rural migration, for urbanites to migrate to the farms to work. The industrial revolution sapped labor from rural areas. The postindustrial era requires the return of this labor to farms. He also calls for political action to create sponsorships for young people to get farm training, to encourage this migration.
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If we can combine it with what people say above, making food more localized from personal plots to community gardens and groves, yes, it CAN work. It’s just going to take real effort. Considering there are people with money who want gardens but don’t make the time to put them in so hire someone to make their garden in the backyard (no I am not kidding), we’ve got a lot way to go with some out there.
.-= Soli @ I Believe in Butter´s last blog ..Regional real food delicacies: Shad roe =-.
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I’m going to put my two cents in here because I grew up on a farm. It seems to me that whether agriculture is defined as “small” or “big” is all in the eye of the city dweller. My dad’s farm is not large by any means, however we grow the same exact crops as the “big” farms down the road do, therefore we are no different from big, production agriculture.
I’d really like Becca, who commented “Particularly in the U.S., we have too many farms where a few people “manage” a huge amount of land by driving machines and spraying chemicals; farm jobs that are still done by hand are so unappealing (partly because of the chemicals!) that citizens don’t want to do them and labor is imported” to tell me how many farms she has worked on lately. Because if you think for a second farm management is as simple as “driving machinery and spraying chemicals” I politely and firmly beg to differ. When I was growing up my dad worked from 4 am until 11 or midnight every day during harvest and spring planting. Summer and winter months were spent fixing machinery, taking care of livestock, prepping fields. I personally grew up working 8-10 hour days every summer, picking rocks, walking fields, driving machinery, taking care of our farm animals, etc. If you have ever driven a machine or sprayed chemicals or done the other few hundred tasks it takes to run a farm, you would realize what hard, dirty, manual labor it really is. My point is that “big agriculture” is not as big as you think. It’s mostly run by ordinary people, and while it’s easy to say that unsustainable farming can’t last forever, it’s not easy for a farmer to completely start over with a different method of farming and face huge, expensive losses. If somebody told you to do something that would be best for the world’s benefit, but you might end up not able to make a living at it and your family might go hungry or lose their home because of it, you might have second thoughts about it. Just something to consider in all the different thoughts about agriculture.
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On nutritionism… I think it’s the language that we speak now as Americans. Even though I site nutrients as the reason to eat a certain food, it is only because that is what people understand now. Most people won’t take “eat this because your grandmother did” as sound advice.
On big agriculture as sustainable… It simply isn’t, and neither is big organic. We will never get a sustainable system out of the industrialized mindset. We have to think back to before the industrial revolution in this country. Those of us who live in a part of the world that is capable of growing food have a responsibility to move away from the comfortable urban/suburban life and start stewarding the land, as God intended.
I really don’t believe anyone can practice sustainability, farmer or not, when they are not moving away from the suburban mindset. Our food culture is broken not just because large agribusinesses are farming wrongly, but because we continue to demand the ease that their products provide us.
Because really, when you look at the rest of the world, even electricity and running water are a luxury that we wouldn’t be able to afford without an unsustainable system.
.-= Shannon´s last blog ..Winner of the US Wellness Meats $85 Gift Certificate and a 15% off Discount Code =-.
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Katie, Your father is a lost breed now days. I live and breathe day to day farm life right here in the middle of NW Iowa. I can look out from any direction from my home and see farmland for miles. 90% of farmers around here have no livestock and if they do, it is factory-style. My father farms conventionally around 2000 acres, which is not a large farm when down the road my neighbor farms about 20, 000 acres total. But my father as most farmers around here hire to have their ground (there are very few exceptions to this!) sprayed. They will disc that in and plant. They do not step back into their fields until harvest time. They will hire someone to come spray it during the summer to kill weeds. He will spend the most of 4 weeks in his fields for the whole year. My point is that it is not hard work. Between the chemicals and government welfare, farming is pretty cheesy work now days. What you talk of was how it was in my childhood only twenty or so years ago. I walked plenty of beans, picked up rocks, etc., etc. I can not tell you how many years it has been since I have seen a farmer walk in his fields. They do what they call windshield farming here, aka drive by with the pickup. There is no need to do it otherwise with GMO soy and corn since you can call the elevator to spray it.
Farmers like to say they are feeding the world but when was the last time any farmer or customer went out and picked their GMO soybeans and GMO corn for supper. The majority of corn in the Midwest goes to ethanol and animal feed. Which the ethanol and biodiesel plants are also government funded by everyone’s tax dollars!
Now take our five acres, we have one milk cow, three other cattle in varies stages, about 50 chickens, huge garden, fruit trees, fruit patches, etc. This is a lot a work. We feed not only our family of six on this 5 acres but sell or give our excess to many others.
We say we can not grow enough to feed the world but have you ever taken a drive across our great nation. Have you ever seen how much space is wasted? If everyone just took a small bit of respondsiblity to grow something that they could eat, WOW, what a difference that would make!
.-= Amy´s last blog ..Busy! =-.
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Katie Reply:
June 11th, 2010 at 5:40 pm
Amy, I wholeheartedly disagree with you. I’m not sure what you think you are observing, but I’ve never even heard of a farmer who spends only 4 weeks a year in his fields. I would love to speak to your dad to find out the story behind that. I’m actually insulted by your statement “My point is that it is not hard work. Between the chemicals and government welfare, farming is pretty cheesy work now days.” You are demeaning an entire way of life that you obviously are ignorant of. I know dozens, if not hundreds of farmers in the area I grew up who work hard and long every day of the year; my dad is by no means a lost breed but instead the standard. I also can’t imagine most farmers having the luxury of hiring out all of their work, unless you are observing multi-million dollar corporate farm operations. Honestly, it is statements like yours based on perception, not fact, that promote an “us against them” attitude between foodies and farmers.
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Amy Reply:
June 11th, 2010 at 9:08 pm
I did not mean to offend you, Katie. I hope it is different where you live! Maybe you have way more livestock in your area and maybe it is not monoculture GMO soybean and corn.
I grew up in this same place, NW Iowa, and my girls are six generations that have lived here. My neighbors have the same history. My husband’s job is trucking and he hauls much of the crops and livestock that are raised in this area. What I observe is that Mr. Dan D., my neighbor to the SW has not been seen since planting season. Many of his fields are visble from my windows and one is 50 yards from my house. I have seen the local fertilizer company out spraying his GMO corn a few weeks ago but have not seen him. Actually, he and his wife have a place on the lake 1 1/2 hours north of here, that is where they are. My neighbors, V. Brothers, to the straight south two miles, farm one of their fields right on our north border. During planting season, they would drive by multiply times day. Have not seen them once since. My father farms on the other two sides of us. People only grain farm for the most part around here. Almost all spraying is hired. Something else I find interesting is that even 10 years ago, you would see the side of the road mowed. Very rarely do you see this any more on rural roads.
But I do know an organic farmer that we buy our organic grain for our chickens from. He does put in long days and actually works his fields and livestock. I have a lot of respect for him. But is an exception around here.
It is just a different way of ag life around here then the way it was when I grew up. I find it very sad and disheartening.
.-= Amy´s last blog ..Busy! =-.
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Co Reply:
June 12th, 2010 at 7:06 pm
What concerns me sometimes when the topic of “factory farms” comes up is the way these farmers are protrayed. The statement that “farming is pretty cheesy work now days” upset me alot coming from a farm family. People seem to think that factory farmers are greedy, uncaring people who treat their animals poorly and use chemicals just to make more money. I think many “factory farms” (at least many that I know) started out as small farms and have become factory farms in order to survive. Now we have a generation of people who are more concerned about what they are eating and would like the farmers to go back to the old ways of doing things. As someone commented earlier “it would not be easy for a farmer to completely start over and face huge losses”. Just remember most “factory farms” are family farms and these are real people trying to make a living.
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Amy Reply:
June 13th, 2010 at 8:22 am
Everyone seems to be getting upset about the pharse, “farming is pretty cheesy work now days”. If you refer to what I orginial wrote, I said there on exceptions. I also am referring to
“grain” farmers in my area. I am not talking about those farmers that have animals or do custom jobs. I am talking about “GMO soybean/corn conventional grain farmers that raise nothing else.” Anyone who works only about four weeks out of the year and still makes a living in my book has it “pretty cheesy”!
Why is that everyone takes everything personally and gets upset when discussing things nowdays? Conventional V. Organic, Sustainable V. UnSustainable, Store Milk V. Raw Milk, home schooling V. public schooling, etc. The list could go on forever. Can we just discuss things without always throwing in the emotions?
.-= Amy´s last blog ..Busy! =-.
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Co Reply:
June 13th, 2010 at 12:04 pm
I think you said that there are very few exceptions. I think it is the other way, most farmers are hard working. Typically I don’t take things personally and I don’t have a problem discussing these things. I happen to agree that farming does need to change. However, I think it is too easy for people to criticize the farmers. Also, I don’t think it is fair when someone makes a general statement about a group of people based on only what they have seen around them. All I know is that my father and brother work very hard year round.
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Katie Reply:
June 14th, 2010 at 5:05 pm
Katie,
Katie
It’s good to have all sides of the story, thank you.
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Katie Reply:
June 14th, 2010 at 4:33 pm
Amy,
Katie
Thank you so much for sharing a personal story!
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Sourdough Sue Reply:
July 2nd, 2010 at 4:00 pm
I don’t think Amy meant any disrespect toward the farmers she knows but industrial farming (as in monocropping with GMO corn or soy) does NOT have the physical component that traditional farming has always had. When I was down in the Southwest this winter, we met dozens of people in RV parks and hotels and guess who most of them were? Farmers. In traditional farming, at least on the farms I am currently acquainted with locally (MI) they cannot take the time away from the farm to vacation for a month. They work winter and summer on some project on their land. Times have changed. Monocropping has encouraged farmers to unload their livestock and work just as Amy described. The farmers have traded extremely hard physical work for a lot of stress and politics with their suppliers etc. Ask Salatin what he thinks. I have read a couple e-articles he wrote that include this subject.
Look-There are hard working farmers and lazy farmers, farmer crooks and saintly farmers just like there are every other group of people. We cannot paint them all with the same brush. If an “Idustrial farmer ” stopped farming with that method, chances are he would go into another line of work, sell the farm and someone else, with a different mindset will buy and change over to a traditional methods farm. Not very many individuals will shift on their own to such a different lifestyle. That doesn’t mean that the change to sustainable methods shouldn’t occur.
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Wow – lots of good points have been made here. I don’t think current agriculture practices are sustainable so I do the only thing I know how to do at this moment – grow as much of my own food as I can and supporting local farmers by buying the rest from them. I think we need re-teaching in how to feed ourselves. It is unfortunate that a lot of knowledge about foods and how to prepare them was lost somewhere when we started to hand over food preperation to others in the interest of having less work to do. As I have been working through my great-grandmother’s cookbook (written in 1892!) I realized that woman of her day had many skills that I do not. They not only knew where all their meat came from but also how to butcher and prepare it. They wasted nothing. They knew what wild plants were edible and used them in their cooking. I think sustainability depends on this generation taking more of an active role in determining what goes on their plates.
.-= Andi´s last blog ..Ginger Cookies =-.
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My husband and I met at MSU during grad school! So sad that we now live 2000 miles away — I would have loved to see Pollan!
While reading the Omnivore’s Dilemma, I couldn’t help but think of all the farms in the community where I grew up (mostly dairy) and wonder if they were using hormones and GMO feed. MSU definitely has the potential to change the future direction of our food systems.
.-= Camille´s last blog ..Three Ways to Buy Stamps Without Going to the Post Office =-.
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No. Current major farming practices are not sustainable.
People keep saying, “We’ll make this GMO variety better! We’ll create a better pesticide!” and on and on with chemicals and etc. Guess what? Nature can’t be fooled. Plants will continue to breed to outsmart the chemicals, and so will insects. The only ones being harmed ultimately will be us. It just doesn’t work that you can create a plant in a lab to be resistant to a pesticide and everything is perfect forever. Monsanto’s GMO soybeans had big promises 15 or 20 years ago; they delivered on none. They are undeservedly arrogant anyway.
As far as aging farmers who know only one way (chemicals) go, that is not an argument against sustainable farming. Yes, change will be slow and it will be difficult. But it CAN be done. It HAS to be done.
We frequent two farms for our food. One farmed conventionally until about 5 years ago and now they practice only chemical-free, sustainable methods. The “main” farmer is in his late 50s, at least. His kids, in their 20s, are starting to come back to help again after college. The other farm is run by a man in his 60s. After working a “normal” job his whole life, he went out and bought his property just 12 years ago and learned organic farming. It CAN be done.
An example even closer to home is my father-in-law. He grew up on a farm. His brothers are STILL farmers (growing primarily corn). He holds a business-ag degree. When we first started to learn all these things a year or two ago, and told him, he said “No, corn-fed beef is better,” because that’s what he was taught in school. But he’s remained open-minded and now goes to one of the farms himself, buys grass-fed beef, drinks raw milk, etc. He grew up one way, holds a degree in “big ag” yet came around to believe strongly in sustainable agriculture, largely because of the improvements he sees in all our health!
So no, change won’t be easy. But it must happen. A system which uses chemicals, is constantly outsmarted and must constantly change, and which relies on non-renewable resources, by definition, is just not sustainable.
.-= Kate´s last blog ..Fried Potatoes with Broccoli and Cheese =-.
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Even if we real foodies could be accused of nutritionism, I think the problematic nutritionism is what we see in our mainstream culture. The SAD (Standard American Diet) mentality tells us to only be concerned with the number of calories, the grams of fat, total carbs, etc. That’s the mentality that leads my diabetic father in law to think that Frosted Flakes are a reasonable breakfast choice because the total number of carbs per serving is below some critical threshold; or my middle school aged niece who’s on her third “100 calorie snack pack” of honey buns and tells me, “These are healthy because they only have 100 calories.” It’s the marketing that emblazons cereal boxes with the “important” nutrtional numbers on the front of the box: # of calories, amount of whole grains, total fat, etc, ignoring the fact that the whole grains have been heated and extruded and fortified and who knows what else. THIS type of nutritionism enslaves us to the “experts” and makes our food more mysterious because who knows what “SODIUM STEAROYL LACTYLATE” or ” AZODICARBONAMIDE” is? (from the ingredient list of White Wheat bread). One shouldn’t need a chemistry degree to understand ingredient labels.
Or another example: I was recently flipping through a healthy living magazine with a spread on “snacks that are 50 calories or less” and includes at least a dozen options – everything from six frosted mini wheats to 1/4 cup of raspberries. Are these two snack options really interchangeable because they are both 50 calories or less???
Real food nutritionism empowers me to make good food choices amongst the myriad of available options out there. One mindset looks at an egg and thinks “That IS 250mg of cholesterol = bad for my health.” The other point of view looks at an egg and thinks “protein! vitamins A & D! Choline! Omega 3s! etc!”
The other point I’d like to comment on is the advice to just eat like our grandmothers did. That is all well and good, but most of us do not have the priviledge of knowing what that really means. We have lost our collective wisdom and knowledge about how to eat a balanced diet without thinking about it. A few generations ago, I’m sure every homemaker knew how to make chicken stock, for example. *I* had to be taught as an adult how to make chicken stock. I never saw anyone make it and I had never made it myself. Or baking bread. Experience is an important part of bread baking knowledge – an experience I was not raised on, but had to teach myself through trial and error (and am still learning!) We’ve been schooled on SAD nutritionism and we now have to spend a lot of time and effort relearning the wisdom of the past that our ancestors took for granted. And what about my kids? They might take this way of eating for granted inside our homes, but when they go out in the real world, we need to arm them with knowledge to make good food choices.
I don’t know what the solution to all these problems is – but education is a start. As GI Joe says “Knowing is half the battle!”
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Lenetta @ Nettacow Reply:
June 11th, 2010 at 10:54 pm
Sarah W rocks, as usual! I kept this unread in my reader so I could come check out the comments, and I’m glad I did. I think at a minimum we can agree that farming is far too diverse to be painted with broad generalizations.
.-= Lenetta @ Nettacow´s last blog ..Inaugural Garden Update (Week 3, Sigh) =-.
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Katie Reply:
June 14th, 2010 at 5:12 pm
Amen x 2!
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'Becca Reply:
June 14th, 2010 at 11:54 am
Great points, Sarah! I share your frustration with the way too many people view food nowadays.
For me, it wouldn’t work too well to eat like my grandmother: She was very excited about trying new products and was always buying things with names like “Suddenly Salad!” While she did cook from scratch on a regular basis, she was into white bread, iceberg lettuce, and gobs of salt. So it all depends on what kind of grandmother you had!
.-= ‘Becca´s last blog .."Ka" Walkthrough =-.
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Sometimes as I eat food (especially meat, which I don’t eat much of anymore), I think to myself, “Would I really be eating this if I had to do all the work of producing it myself?” If that apple pie I made from “scratch” were really made from ingredients that went from seed to pie by my own hand, I would certainly deserve every calorie.
That’s what I loved about Barbara Kingsolver in Animal, Vegetable, Miracle. Not only was it local and mostly organic, she was out in the garden, planting, weeding, harvesting. She could eat the eggs because she raised the chickens who laid them.
It’s so overwhelming to think about the best way to feed the world. Could most of us commit to feeding our own families with sustainable agriculture if we had to do the work ourselves? I don’t know if I could.
.-= Starving Student Survivor´s last blog ..Homemade Shampoo and Conditioner =-.
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Lenetta @ Nettacow Reply:
June 11th, 2010 at 10:55 pm
Heh, I had that exact same thought (if I had to make it) regarding ice cream earlier today. :>)
.-= Lenetta @ Nettacow´s last blog ..Inaugural Garden Update (Week 3, Sigh) =-.
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Miss Music Reply:
June 12th, 2010 at 1:45 pm
Yesterday, I spent 1.5 hours picking cherries in my back yard. I then spent 2 hours washing, pitting and preparing them for freezing. I ended up with around 4 cups of cherries after all this work, probably enough for one pie or cobbler. I am surely going to enjoy the “fruits” of my labor some time in the future when I prepare that pie or cobbler. But if all desserts took this much labor, I surely would stop eating dessert altogether!!!
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Great post, Katie – and fantastic question for Pollan! So glad that he answered it for you!
As a reformed urbanite, now living on a little over 3 acres with a large garden, I often find the work it takes to keep this up surprising! I always wanted such a large garden, such great space, and chickens (we have 15) but I had no idea how much work it’d take.
Where did those weeds come from? The chickens are hungry again? And it rained so all their feed is wet and it’s muddy and stinky and the eggs are dirty?
Problems I’d never met before moving here.
BUT, it is all worth it. All of it. All the work, the picking, the callouses (yes, I got callouses from picking strawberries), because I see my boys realizing that the eggs we eat for breakfast every morning are from the chickens that we feed and clean up after (and run after) every day. The canning pots and jars vying for space in my pantry and freezer jam I make are from food that I planted, weeded and harvested. And the pride I have from those callouses, and those jars and those eggs in feeding my family, friends and guests, are a blessing. Because I know where it came from. It has intrinsic value because I know the work that made it. And I think that America has lost that (though is now regaining it in the Real Food lifestyle that is regaining popularity.) and it will be a blessing when we all regain it again.
The thing is, my garden, though large, could easily fit in a standard American back (or front) yard. It’s not that ridiculously huge. Those fruit trees in my orchard, a few of them could fit in a back corner lot or a front yard. The grapes in my vineyard, at least a few of them, could grow near the fenceline in a suburban neighborhood.
What I have is spread out. We still have a lot of lawn to mow and extra acreage that isn’t even used. What I have is attainable in almost any suburban lot. If we only find the time and space to rethink our needs and priorities.
Anyway – great post, very interesting comments and I look forward to reading more!
Best,
Sarah
.-= Sarah´s last blog ..Happy Weekending! =-.
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Katie Reply:
June 14th, 2010 at 5:22 pm
Sarah,
It’s good to see you back, my friend!
I just love hearing about your chickens and fruit trees…I can almost imagine I have some, too. Lovely!
Katie
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My maternal grandparents were orchardists, my paternal grandparents owned a feed and lumber store, both grandmothers ALWAYS had a large garden. Frankly, there was plenty of junk in one of my grandmother’s diet! She bought Hershey bars by the box and they ate Wheaties or Corn Flakes for most breakfasts (my other grandma favored Cheerios!). Their produce showed up at every meal, even if it meant a jar of home canned apricots to go on top of the boxed cereal. They also had raw cream on top of that cereal! At dinner and supper, more vegetables would show up, but honestly, there was a LOT more canned vegetables than fresh. I have a copy of the “Beehive Grange” cookbook that my grandma contributed to and there is very little in in that would pass for whole food. They were sold a bill of goods too!
I look further back in history for culinary soundness and I am another “foodie” who learned little or nothing from either my grandmothers or my mother and has had to teach myself.
Yes, it is time to retool our model for feeding ourselves, from the farmer down to the individual but I absolutely believe we CAN sustain ourselves if we are willing to change our mindset to consume less and produce more.
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No, conventional agriculture today is *not* sustainable. Our way of life in the US is *not* sustainable. If everyone in the world lived with the same ecological footprint as the average US citizen, we would need 6 Earths to have enough materials and energy for that. We have two choices- make big changes fast, or lie down in the bed we’ve made. I know it’s not a happy thought, but that’s the way it is. Unfortunately, in the US we’re so trained that any pain/suffering/sacrifice on our part is anathema to capitalism and that we should have every cent we make to spend on ourselves and our family with none going to saving or taxes, that I’m not sure we can make the changes needed
.-= Lisa´s last blog ..Inactive =-.
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The most frustrating part of farming, for me, is the legal restrictions and regulations that are everywhere. The small valley where I grew up is a good example – there are many small farms, but to sell farm gate cattle is illegal in Canada. So, instead of the beef staying and feeding the people who live there, it gets shipped out to auctions and then who knows where. Stores can’t sell local produce, and farmers markets have to follow x,y,z in order to legally sell food. I understand that this is done to protect people, but if everyone took an interest in where their food comes from, they would know their farmer’s practices.
And I completely agree with Sarah W, re nutrition and calories. Who eats just 6 miniwheats anyway? I was shocked when a young friend confided that for the last two years she counted almost every calorie that went in her mouth. She’s 19! She struggles with her weight – and is hungry almost all the time. And she thinks she is trying to be healthy, because it’s unhealthy to be overweight. It’s so much more than how much one weighs!
But, I am heartened by blogs such as KS. It seems as if there are more people who care or are curious, and that such an attitude is spreading. I hope!
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The bottom line is that there are too many mouths to feed and not enough topsoil left to do it. Neither conventional agriculture nor Salatin-style grass-fed operations can feed the world and they shouldn’t. We need to start not only taking responsibility for feeding ourselves, but also for how many mouths we bring into the world. I am a mother and wouldn’t trade my son for anything, but any conversation that tries to answer the question “how do we feed the world?” has to include the ugly truth that we as capitalist-imperialists need to stop reproducing so much. Our children use 30 times the amount of resources as a child in India. It needs to stop. I’m surprised that Michael Pollan didn’t address that, but adding this reality to your campaign certainly doesn’t make one any more popular.
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Katie Reply:
June 14th, 2010 at 6:12 am
Katie,
I could never tell people to say “no” to the gift of life. I do not believe that the world is overpopulated. Let us simply raise our children more like those in India, if that’s what it takes to accept God’s blessing of a large family. I won’t worry about being popular, just about being holy. Your comment is certainly shared by many others, but that doesn’t mean there isn’t another solution.
Thanks, Katie
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Sarah W Reply:
June 14th, 2010 at 7:40 am
I agree with Katie K.
God created this world – he is all powerful, all knowing. He asks us to be good stewards, which is our duty, but we cannot “use up” God’s creation by cooperating with him to create more life – that which He loves most!!!
Overpopulation – even on a secular level – is a false problem. We will soon be facing (in just a few decades) declining population as the world wide birthrates are already below replacement levels. When we don’t even replace ourselves (at least 2 children per woman) we are going to face more serious economic, social and political problems than how to support grass fed farmers. Farmers will probably be in danger going out of business because there won’t be ENOUGH mouths to feed – not because there will be too many!
Japan is already dealing with this crisis and Europe is on the brink of crisis as well and it is certainly an issue in the forefront of EU countries. USA won’t be far behind.
God provides. Perhaps Katie G. does not share this conviction, but I think it is in a way prideful to believe that we can foil God’s own Creation. However, please understand I do not mean that in any way to diminish our responsbility to be good stewards of Creation.
If you have the opportunity, please watch the documentary “Demographic Winter.”
All the statistics of declining population are corraborated by the U.N. as well.
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Katie Reply:
June 14th, 2010 at 5:31 pm
Sarah W,
You are on fire this week! Yes, yes, yes. Another practical example: why is social security not working anymore? Because the government that created it assumed that each person would have a few progeny to become working adults and pay into the system.
Katie
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Naomi H Reply:
June 15th, 2010 at 7:36 am
Sarah, said it before I did!
The issue of birth rates is not so obvious in North America because everyone is from everywhere, but in Europe, where each area has a long standing culture, immigration is more visually obvious and the differences are starting to create some tension. Japan does not encourage immigration at all, and, if you believe statistics, are set to loose 70% of the workforce by 2050. Not very far away.
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Naomi H Reply:
June 14th, 2010 at 7:56 am
It’s not about how many people there are, it’s about how they live. You yourself said that “our children use 30 times the amount of resources as a child in India.” Those who care about the earth’s resources and world poverty, including myself, need to reexamine their own lifestyle. People have legitimate needs, but mounds of gadgets and gizmos are not necessary.
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'Becca Reply:
June 14th, 2010 at 12:00 pm
It’s very important to consider per capita consumption as well as the number of people. I’m very relieved that many parents of both large and small families are working on reducing their families’ resource use.
But there IS inevitably an upper limit, a number of people that is too many even if each of us uses the smallest amount of stuff we can. God’s command was to “be fruitful and multiply and fill the earth”; at some point, the earth will be full! It’s important to notice when that point comes, rather than keep on making babies like the Sorceror’s Apprentice or something. I don’t think we are “full” yet, but that point is coming.
.-= ‘Becca´s last blog .."Ka" Walkthrough =-.
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Neither Europe nor Japan could feed their current population without the serious input of oil for agriculture and importing. They are living on what is called “ghost acreage,” the acreage that is added on to what is there by what they use that is imported. It is not about being at a carrying capacity involving the use of oil to obtain food. Sure, we are (mostly) feeding the world using an enormous input of fossil fuels, but once you take the oil away, we will not be able to feed who is left here unless our agriculture makes a radical change and birth rates significantly decrease everywhere. Furthermore, I personally do not want my child to have to live like most children in India. I certainly do not find India to be the model of sustainability.
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Naomi H Reply:
June 17th, 2010 at 8:26 am
I didn’t mean to imply that any one country was a model of sustainability. Certainly not Japan. The point was that populations are already dropping in developed countries. And while India may not be sustainable either, it wouldn’t hurt if our children used less resources, akin to children in India.
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'Becca Reply:
June 18th, 2010 at 1:37 am
I agree that all of us, regardless of our family size, should “Live simply so that others may simply live.”
The fact that populations are decreasing in the most wasteful countries is mildly encouraging for our world’s future, but it’s overshadowed by these facts:
1. World population overall is increasing now. That could change, but at this point most of Africa and many other countries are above replacement rate in births, and life spans are increasing in most of the world.
2. When people immigrate from a poorer to a richer country, they tend to adopt a higher-consumption lifestyle.
3. Many developing countries are using more resources per capita every year, most notably China.
I have great respect for people who follow their beliefs by avoiding abortion and artificial contraception. That is not the same thing as purposely having as many children as possible. As Katie explained in her excellent article at Simple Organic, natural family planning can be quite successful at limiting births.
I can’t worry much about who will support Japanese retirees in the style to which they are accustomed, when Africa is filling with suffering children. There are plenty of young people in the world; we just need to spread them around!
.-= ‘Becca´s last blog .."Ka" Walkthrough =-.
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Sarah W Reply:
June 18th, 2010 at 2:11 pm
The issue with declining birth rates is not about retirees being able to enjoy a high standard of living. After a certain point, nations with negative birth rates will see the collapse of all the social, economic and political structures that we take for granted. Without people to run ‘the machine’ and use it’s output, the machine stops running.
Again, I must recommend watching “Demographic Winter” for at least being exposed to another point of view on this matter. I’m not seeing available through Netflix, unfortunately, but they do have a website http://www.demographicwinter.com Check out the Q & A:
(exerpted:)
“What are the consequences of demographic decline?”
“…If present low birthrates persist, the European Union estimates there will be a continent-wide shortfall of 20 million workers by 2030.
Who will operate the factories and farms in the Europe of the future? Who will develop the natural resources? Where will Russia find the soldiers to guard the frontiers of the nation with the largest land mass? ”
“If the United States has near-replacement fertility, why should we care?”
“…National economies are interconnected to such an extent that the impact of economic collapse in one country or region can be felt around the world.
The social, political and economic decline of previously stable nations can destabilize entire regions and create perils for neighbors and far-ways allies. The United States is connected to Europe economically and through multiple security treaties. “
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Bebe Reply:
June 19th, 2010 at 12:08 pm
Excellent points Sarah. I always hate it when the subject of “over population” comes up because I never have a current resource available for rebuttal. Thanks for sharing the link to Demographic Winter. Do you know if anyone has done ‘population per square acreage’ figures recently? A dozen or so years ago there was one that showed how the entire world’s population could fit, with an acre of land each, into a particular state or states here in the U.S. I would love to see an updated one.
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Katie Reply:
June 20th, 2010 at 10:03 am
Bebe,
Yes, it was Texas!
For everyone on this post, here are two more EXCELLENT resources:
UNESCO, the United Nations Educational, Scientific, and Cultural Organization, published this: http://www.unesco.org/education/tlsf/TLSF/theme_c/mod14/uncom14t03s01.htm which addresses every single idea we’ve mentioned in this conversation and more. 10 myths about population.
Population Research Institute is a non-profit dedicated to debunking myths: http://www.pop.org/
Please read the UN report – how can you get any more neutral than the UN?
Thanks for all this interesting conversation!
Katie
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I actually went to Michael Pollan’s lecture at MSU too… and had about the same view!
I think the part I could relate to the most was about nutritionism– I’ve already really like the idea of thinking of the food as a whole, and not necessarily a ‘nutrient delivery mechanism.’
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“‘Who will operate the factories and farms in the Europe of the future? Who will develop the natural resources? Where will Russia find the soldiers to guard the frontiers of the nation with the largest land mass? ‘”
What if I don’t want nearly as many factories (which create useless “stuff” for consumers to buy)? What if I don’t want the world to have to use as many resources (natural and otherwise)? What if I don’t want Russia to have to even have soldiers?
I’m not ignorant. I know that there will have to be a major paradigm shift for any of these things to change, but the reality is that that paradigm shift WILL happen regardless of whether we begin to all use grass-fed meat operations, regardless of whether we make a conscious effort to “live simply” and regardless of whether we want it to happen or not. Oil will become scare and eventually run out. I would prefer for us as a species to prepare for when that happens and think about what we can do to diminish the impact on ourselves, our children, and/or our children’s children.
Of course, we will never all agree on anything. Over-population is not the only problem our planet is facing, but it is a big one. Our exaggerated population is only possible with oil, and our agriculture necessarily destroys our topsoil and watersheds. It’s a vicious cycle, and one that needs many minds to consider if we have any chance of finding solutions. I hope those minds can come together before it is an emergency and that is where my prayers will lie.
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