Does Satan Hate Bread?

This post may contain affiliate links, including Your price won't change but it enables free content & supports our family business.

artisan bread in 5 minutes a day (12)

Whenever we talk about bread being bad, whether it be because of phytic acid, lectins, carbs, or gluten, many Christians offer a simple rebuttal:

Jesus said, “I am the Bread of Life.” If Christ raised bread in such high esteem as to become bread, how can it be so evil?

In fact, in Catholic teaching, God elevated bread so much that He destined it to be transubstantiated into His Body in the Sacrament of the Eucharist. The substance of the bread miraculously changes into the substance of Christ’s flesh – but unfortunately for those with Celiac disease, there’s still gluten in there as far as digestion goes.

What gives?

My oldest is preparing for First Communion this year, and one of the booklets he was given has a good deal of information about bread – a page that I landed on while skimming talked about why Jesus might have chosen bread to be the substance for Holy Communion. It says, “You can eat bread at every meal and not get tired of it, like you might if you ate, say, chili three times a day.”

They’re going to make bread during a little retreat the second graders are doing with parents in a few weeks, and it all just makes me uncomfortable.

Any time bread products come up nowadays, I get squirmy.

Bread seems like it’s the enemy, when you have a husband with Crohn’s Disease and a clear gluten sensitivity, and you feel like the ball will probably drop on one or more of your kids someday with an autoimmune diagnosis.

In fact, I hate the fact that food has wormed its way into even the religion class, where now I have to move past that page quickly or hope Paul doesn’t ask any questions about why God says bread is good and Mom says bread is bad.

Why does good food make us sick?

In the garden, the serpent perverted the beauty of the Tree of Life and tricked Adam and Eve into wishing to be like God, disobeying Him, and choosing power over love.

One widely accepted theory on why so many people are becoming gluten sensitive pins the whole problem on genetically modified wheat. Is not genetic modification humanity’s attempt to be as a god, to play the Creative role God has firmly established for Himself? EDIT 2/14/13: Oops. My mistake. I was going from memory from reading this article in print and mistakenly latched onto the phrase “genetics” when really, wheat has been highly hybridized. This explanation by the same author (of the book Wheat Belly), along with some reader comments for which I’m very grateful, set me straight. The basic premise is the same, however: man altered God’s design in order to make something “better,” and in the process likely made many people sicker.

Here’s a newer post I wrote explaining the misconception the wheat is a GMO crop – it’s not!

I was thinking about this at Mass on Sunday as I gazed at the Host, that glutinous host, and I thought about Satan and his methods for doing evil.


It stands to reason that if God Himself heaps honor on bread, on wheat, that it is precisely that food that Satan would choose to attack through the weakness and pride of men.

Just as Job was given the strength to survive terrible trials because of his faith in God, we learn that if life seems too perfect, we’re probably not being faithful enough. If we have no trials with which to test our faith, it is probably too weak to handle them.

Why would Satan attack celery, mess with mustard, or bring down Brussels Sprouts? No one is using them to bring Love to the world.

No, it makes sense that bread attracted the attention of the prince of darkness.

By tempting man to gluttony (we eat too much gluten), pride (we took control of nature for ourselves), and sloth (what else is processed foods, many of which have added gluten?), Satan has perverted something good into something evil for many, taken a food that is the staff of life in many cultures and turned it into a cause of disease, and brought dissension and tension into my own Eucharistic faith.

When man was ushered out of the Garden of Eden, he was told he would toil in the fields as punishment.

I’m afraid that in fleeing from our punishment, in avoiding toil in the fields by modifying the very foods we eat for efficiency and mass production, we have again chosen power over love.

An important note I need to add: “Many are the troubles of the just, but the Lord delivers from them all.” (Ps. 34:20) In spite of the many attacks of Satan on our world on a daily basis, I trust in God’s might, and that He will never allow Satan to prevail in the end over His Church or His holy ones. These bodies of ours are only vessels to proclaim His love, and if we do that without bread and with suffering, we are all the more effective conduits. Satan will never win!

May your Lent be a time of sacrifice, deepened prayer, and generous service, and may you grow in holiness these 40 days.

I’m signing off the computer for Ash Wednesday, and one of my Lenten promises this year is to not work when the kids are awake…so if I don’t have a post one day, it probably means I was not disciplined enough the night before! Oh, how I neeeeeeed Lent every year…

Click here for my disclaimer and advertising disclosure - affiliate links in this post will earn commission based on sales, but it doesn't change your price.

149 Bites of Conversation So Far

    • Suzanne says

      I so agree–thanks for tackling the tricky issue of sacred bread. I think it’s quite plausible that Satan got us to mess up the “staff of life”!

  1. J in VA says

    My dh has mentioned that he finds many sites that are anti-grain are also anti-Jesus. (Not all but many.)Many also have an evolutionary bent which is also disturbing.

    I did a trial last year giving up gluten but found that it did not seem to make a difference for me and the troubles I had prior were gone when I started eating it again. I ask someone who was gluten free if she could recommend a Christian, Bible based source for me as I researched–she knew of none.

    Recently, I bought a grain mill and am grinding flour which seems to be agreeing with all of my family.

    I realize that your husband has celiac which is not normal. I would treat it like an allergy when addressing it with your children. You don’ t want to make wheat the evil; just like you don’ t make peanuts evil if there is that allergy.

    I also agree—Satan has chosen to make wheat the thing that people altered, changed and often malign. It is no accident that Jesus is the bread of life.

    • Katie Kimball @ Kitchen Stewardship says

      Good for you to try an elimination diet just in case – gluten isn’t everyone’s problem, but man, the incidents are increasing.

      Like my husband’s Crohn’s, for example, and autoimmune disease (not Celiac). A regular doc would never tell him it had anything to do with gluten, but we can see the difference. Crohn’s is one of those enigmatic diseases where we know there is some genetic factor but also some environmental factor, but we don’t quite understand either of them – which means that if gluten exacerbated (or caused) his Crohn’s, it’s very possible that my kids may reach their “total gluten load” more quickly than most and then develop Crohn’s or colitis, too. We keep them to very low gluten whenever possible, to be honest, because of the risk.

      It’s possible that 1/3 of our country is sensitive (not allergic) to gluten – but for the other 2/3, milling freshly ground grains can be a wonderful way to nourish your families. There are some who will say wheat has been so adulterated that no one should eat it, but I’d take it one step at at time.

      I’m curious about your search for a Bible-based resource on gluten intolerances – do you mean you wanted someone to demonstrate something about food allergies from Scripture? I don’t think that’s going to happen, but I’m sure there are many, many Christian nutritionists and naturopaths who can speak on the reality of gluten intolerance.

      :) Katie

      • says

        You did not give a solution and though interesting -it speaks as though Christ has not died to redeem us from the curse given in the days of law-does it not dsay wehave been redeemed from the curse of the law?

  2. Katie says

    This is a fascinating post, and something that hits dead center with my family. My husband is a Russian Orthodox priest, and I make the communion bread (prosphora) for Divine Liturgy every week. Our younger son was diagnosed with Celiac disease last April, and suddenly we had this horrifying prospect on our hands. In the Orthodox church, the bread is unleavened, and both species, bread and wine, are consecrated in the same vessel. There is no separation. There is no option for separation. And canons state that the bread must be made of wheat. So what do we do? Deny him communion? For us, that absolutely, without question, was not an option.
    What we decided, after prayer and talking to friends and other priests, was that we would trust in God. If Satan’s plan is to so pervert our bodies and our food that we fall ill from something as simple and life-sustaining as bread, then we would trust that God would never allow the consecrated Eucharist to harm our son, or anyone else (and, in fact, from what we have learned from other people, some with severe Celiac and Crohn’s, is that Holy Communion does not affect them. Miraculous? You bet!).

    Please don’t allow the discussion of bread during your children’s religious teaching to make you uncomfortable. There’s a huge difference between ordinary bread and Communion. Just explain to them why. Children can understand that. Why further Satan’s plan by scaring them away from the true Source of Life?

    • M. Lillian Hughes says

      As a Protestant born again Spirit filled believer, I was blessed by your testimony and I heartily agree with you!

    • Katie says

      Aargh, I should reread my comments more carefully when I’m tired. Our communion bread is leavened, not unleavened. There’s definitely yeast in there, I can distinctly remember more than once trying to bake only to find out that I was completely out!

      • Jennifer says

        I have been reading lately that a lot of our problems with wheat stem from the commercial yeasts that are being used now days. When you use natural yeast it breaks down the wheat in the bread and makes it more digestible. Commercial yeasts don’t do that. It’s the same concept as soaking your grains to get rid of phytic acid. I don’t have any wheat problems in our family so I can’t tell you anything from experience but this is the book I read:
        Have you heard anything like that?

        • Katie says

          Yes, I’ve read about that process. I’ve even got recipes, but…I’m not that organized yet. I’d love to make bread that way, both for church and our family (and it would be interesting to see how my son did with naturally leavened bread, but he’ll have to make the choice to try it when he’s older, since he’s the one who would be in pain should it not work out). Unfortunately, it’s going to have to wait until I can get my butt in gear. (Interestingly, I just came across a gluten-free sourdough starter the other day, too, but same problem.)

    • Katie Kimball @ Kitchen Stewardship says

      An amazing testimony to faith, and thank you so much for sharing. I was hoping someone would have a story of Eucharist not harming one with Celiac, because the only example I ever heard (I haven’t gone looking) was a research paper written on a nun who received communion every day when she was supposed to be gluten free, and couldn’t shake her symptoms. She finally stopped receiving the host, and they all went away. The paper was about how such a small amount – 1/8 mg maybe? – of gluten can have such a major impact.

      But I do believe Christ can change the gluten/protect the body if it is His will, and I pray that it is for your son! What a powerful example you are setting for him.

      Your sister in Christ,
      the other Katie 😉

      • jennifer says

        This is good to know. My first grader is near-celiac, so I was wondering what to do for him next year for his First Communion and afterward. It’s so hard because he is shy and sensitive and I don’t want him to have a negative association from having to be ‘different’ at Communion time. I guess I will have to just try to get the low-gluten hosts. He has daily Mass at school so it’s hard to coordinate.

        This is such an interesting take on the gluten issue. I also think that food allergies and sensitivities have an evil side because they separate people who try to gather to eat together as families and then it becomes difficult or impossible because they can’t all eat the same food.

    • Katie says

      I also want to add one thing. I’m not in any way saying that I think that everyone who has Celiac or a gluten sensitivity will be able to tolerate the Eucharist. It may be that God in His mercy allows more Orthodox believers to eat the Body without pain because we have no alternative, while Catholic believers can take the Blood without any mixing, and so because they have another option, there are more cases of people reacting.

      • says

        I did know one woman with severe celiac who was completely unaffected by receiving the Eucharist. I also know people who choose not to take that risk. For gluten-containing Hosts to not affect a person with celiac is a miracle — which is great — but perhaps not something you can expect. God does it for his own reasons.

        There is a group now attempting to make low-gluten hosts through a process of removing the gluten from wheat. They are not completely gluten-free, but they’re very, very close. I don’t know the name or anything, but perhaps you will be able to dig them up if you’re interested.

  3. says

    Thanks for your thoughts. I remember in high school when our youth group celebrated communion (very reverently, I might add) with potato chips and soda. Jesus’ choice of bread as a metaphor was a cultural one, I think. I hope one day we will think of vegetables and meat as the staff of life and Jesus will whisper to us, “I am your daily salad.” Have a blessed lent.

    • Katie Kimball @ Kitchen Stewardship says

      I’m so glad your high school leader was able to pass on reverence, community, and ultimately Jesus to you as a young person. What a gift. Catholics are a bit different in our traditions, in that communion is not actually a metaphor, or a symbol, but a true changing of bread into Body, wine into Blood. It sounds kind of crazy at first glance but is very Biblical. In Jn 6 when people flocked away from Him, Christ surely would have said “symbol” if He meant symbol.

      But I would love to hear Him whisper, “Please eat your daily salad!” too! 😉 Katie

  4. says

    Katie, thanks for sharing your thoughts. Your thought on gluttony makes me also think of the corruption interlaced throughout history. I don’t think excessive eating of wheat is limited to gluttony. Often times, people had no choice other than to eat their fill of bread because that is all they had due to abusive governments and the exploitation the underclass, resulting in very little food other than bread.
    As someone who has struggled with gluten-intolerance for years, I’ve thought a lot about how this is a struggle for community as well. Breaking bread is often synonomous with a communal meal, but gluten-intolerance isolates and cuts one off from community. Anyway, thanks again for sharing your thoughts! It’s got me thinking a lot about the subject as well. :)

    • Katie Kimball @ Kitchen Stewardship says

      So true:
      “Breaking bread is often synonomous with a communal meal, but gluten-intolerance isolates and cuts one off from community.”

      It makes social eating TOUGH!
      Thank you for sharing – : ) Katie

      • Katrina says

        I always make sure to eat before I go and I’m not even tempted. I am on a much more restrictive diet (SCD) than just gluten free, though. Also, sometimes I bring my own food (if permitted). Everyone understands who knows me. It’s a good conversation!

  5. says

    Nicely said. Jesus used bread for a number of reasons, likely. One, because it was already part of the Sedar meal they were consuming. Two was likely because in that culture, it WAS a normal, sustaining part of life. Jesus is our sustenance; our daily intake, our life giver. All these things originally were applied to bread; and can be said equally of Him. Where Satan has used this life-giving element to our hurt, is obviously an issue, but it is similar with other things he has equally transformed. Sad, that it’s not otherwise.

    • Gayle says

      Wasn’t the Last Supper Passover, though? The bread wouldn’t have bread, so much as cracker – matzo, or unleavened bread.

  6. Amy D. says

    I understand where you are coming from in this post, but I wanted to point out that bread can be made without wheat. Will it be different? Sure. But it’s still bread. I don’t think that the “bread of life” should be limited to only one kind (and unleavened does not mean it has to have wheat). God gave us so many options for food, and I don’t think that was an accident, either.

    I don’t have a gluten sensitivity, myself. I went grain and lentil free for four weeks to get past a weight loss plateau and did not feel any difference at all in either allergies or intestinal issues. I thank God that I don’t have any food issues (that I am aware of) because I love it so much – the gift of taste is one of the greatest, IMHO!

    • Katie Kimball @ Kitchen Stewardship says

      Good call, and we make some incredible rice/millet flatbread around here, in fact. But in the Catholic Church, the law is wheat. I suppose that may change, but it will be slow…besides that, bread is simply traditionally wheat bread. Ask anyone who isn’t gluten sensitive to make some bread or buy some bread, and you’ll get wheat. I think Satan knew exactly what he was doing when he attacked wheat, if my theory is right.

      And oh…I hear you on loving food! 😉 Katie

      • Cindy L. says

        It has been my understanding (don’t remember where I first read this), but I believe in Jesus’ day only the very wealthiest could afford wheat. The common people ate barley bread. For instance, hen Jesus fed the 5000 it was supposed to have been with 5 small loaves (more like rolls) of barley bread. That’s why a little boy would have 5 of them; because they were so small.

        Anyway, I’m not Catholic, but it surprises me that they would make a ruling that the bread has to be wheat, when it probably wasn’t wheat that Jesus blessed and gave to the disciples at the Last Supper.

        • Amy D. says

          I am not Catholic, either, so I don’t really get this “ruling”, but I do want to point out that the only bread flours I’ve seen mentioned in the Bible are listed in Ezekiel 4:9. Granted it does mention barley and spelt (which still contain gluten, even though it is less than traditional wheat), but also mentions bean, lentil, and millet flours (which ARE gluten-free). Just food for thought (see what I did, there?).

      • says

        I’m catholic, too, and I’m 99.9% sure we have a gluten free option for communion… only because I’m in the choir and they keep the tray for the extraordinary ministers on the partition in front of where the choir sits, and one of the little gold communion holders (I’m sure they have a name, I’m not sure what it is) says “gluten free.” That’s why I’m not 100% sure, though, because I haven’t dealt with it directly. I do have a friend who goes to my church whose son is super allergic to all grains, though, so I’ll have to ask her what they do.

  7. Kathleen K says


    This is a great post. And I do agree with you on it (except for one point, which I’ll get to.)

    For a period of time, I was allergic to wheat. Eating anything with gluten caused very uncomfortable, even painful, reactions. But I changed my diet, incorporated more probiotics, and managed, by the grace of God, to heal my gut. Today, wheat causes no problems, and in fact, I feel better if I have my “daily bread.” There are many people who have followed SCD or GAPS type diets for a period of time who have discovered their body does indeed, heal. That type of diet is very difficult and it isn’t for everyone. The issue isn’t about bread. It is about the health of the gut.

    Now for the disagreement:

    In the USA, wheat is non-GMO. A genetically modified organism means it has had a gene from a different organism spliced into it. The top GMO crops in the USA are: corn, canola, cottonseed, soy, sugar beets, Hawaiian papaya, and some zucchini/yellow squash. Dairy can also have GMO if the cows were given GM bovine growth hormone. Farm raised salmon and alfalfa are the newest GMO products to hit the USA.

    Wheat today has been hybridized. This means wheat was selectively bred with different wheat for specific characteristics. It is not the same as GMO. While it is true that wheat today isn’t identical to wheat from 100 years ago, it still isn’t GMO. Whether or not it is as nutritious can be debated.

    • Denise says

      You are absolutely correct, Kathleen. Unfortunately, hybridization can cause some issues as well, but nothing like GMOs.

      • says

        I was just thinking the same thing… I didn’t think wheat was GMO in the US (or anywhere), but hybrid species, which seems a little less obviously opposed to God’s ways. It could be seeking power, or it could be working in harmony with His ways, depending on the heart of the grower.

        • Denise says

          Actually, wheat is GMO. It is being developed and researched in Australia and Monsanto is pushing very hard to have it released into the world wide food supply. It has not been yet.

          The clinical studies have so far shown it to be so toxic that none of the scientists involved are recommending it be eaten by humans. That doesn’t stop Monsanto though – they are evil.

          • says

            In the article above it says that people have become gluten sensitive because of GM wheat. I hardly think that a trial in Australia would cause world-wide gluten problems, particularly since the gluten problems preceded the trials.

            The truth is that commercially available wheat is not GM. It is irresponsible to say that wheat is GM, and I urge Katie to update the post to remove that since it isn’t correct. The GM wheat misconception is common, but I think that it is important to differentiate between genetically modified food and food that has been modified through selective breeding.

            For a list of commercially available genetically modified food, read here:

              • says

                You seem to have missed my point. Katie wrote, “One widely accepted theory on why so many people are becoming gluten sensitive pins the whole problem on genetically modified wheat.” If GM is coming soon but is not here yet, it cannot be guilty of causing gluten problems. It is irresponsible to say that wheat is genetically modified just because it might be in the future and irresponsible to say that it could cause gluten problems when it has not yet been genetically modified on the open market.

                • Blair Massey says

                  I understood your point completely. I was just pointing out that it is coming. Like everything else that is GMO, wheat will be also. It is not a matter of if, but when.

                • Katie Kimball @ Kitchen Stewardship says

                  Elisabeth and Blair,
                  Thank you!! I’m editing the post now, because in fact, the theory is that it’s the hybridization of wheat that has changed its protein/carbohydrate/gluten structure and potentially caused gluten intolerances to rise. I completely misspoke. I was going by memory from this article that I read: in a print magazine, but this post by the same author sets me straight: The point, thankfully, which my whole post hinges on, is that humans have altered something God created, attempting to make it “better.” In the course of that action, we have (probably) made many people sicker. Satan wins. (Until, at least, everyone in the world buys into the idea that suffering has meaning, as Christ taught us – then we can grab the victory back!)

                  Thanks for sharing that link to get me digging…
                  :) Katie

    • Katie Kimball @ Kitchen Stewardship says

      Thank you, Kathleen! I edited the post with much dismay that I had spread a fallacy, gah – it’s so easy to make the mistake when articles talk about wheat’s “genetics” yet they don’t mean GMO. Totally my fault going from memory instead of fact-checking…Thank you for correcting me!

      I hope that if we ever get up the guts to do GAPS, pun intended, that we can heal enough to enjoy sourdough bread and whole wheat rolls (and some other things, ahem) again! :) Katie

      • Kathleen K says

        Katie, for the record, I did not do a full GAPS. I did follow an SCD diet (which GAPS is based on) for a period of time and I took massive doses of probiotics. I think most people are scared away from GAPS because it is so restrictive and they fear it will be for a lifetime. It isn’t. It only needs to last for as long as the body needs to heal, then you gradually come off of it. In my case, restricting the diet was worth it because now I can eat anything I want without the horrible repercussions. Of course, now I choose to eat a healthy diet :)

        • Patty says

          I don’t know if crohn’s victims can ever eat resume SCD illegal foods. I am crohn’s eating SCD since Nov 2011 and in remission medication free, participating in RUSH Univ studies on SCD. I think at the end of the day, they’ll find IBD to be similar to Celiac needing permanent dietary restrictions, and like diabetes, that it is possible to manage medication free (or along w/use of minimal risk/harmful medication) using SCD. My thoughts are medication is being administered to permit consumption of the SCD illegal foods. No bread is worth biologic RXX exposure and resultant cancer implications from it’s long term use.

          • Katie Kimball @ Kitchen Stewardship says

            Fascinating! I would love to be part of a university trial on good food, wow!

            ” My thoughts are medication is being administered to permit consumption of the SCD illegal foods. No bread is worth biologic RXX exposure and resultant cancer implications from it’s long term use.”
            I totally agree. Too much medication!

            My husband was able to eat non-SCD food (and still can) without immediate repercussions, but I do/did always wonder about long-term. We shall see…it would be nice if even Crohn’s patients could heal their guts, but if not…at least we know how to avoid medication!

            Thank you so much for sharing- :) Katie

  8. says

    Great post, Katie. The enemy does attack the work of God at every turn. But the Lord thwarts him every time and uses it for good – as in you getting to share Truth through your trial and challenge. Hugs! :)

  9. Kaylin says

    I had a similar revelation this last Sunday during our worship service. Years ago I heard a teaching on how ancient cultures believed your soul/spirit/heart resided in your gut. A friend of mine often says ‘you are only as sick as your sin.’ Those two thoughts, together with the current spiritual state of our world, made me think it really is no wonder so many are now suffering from gluten issues. Of course I am NOT suggesting that those suffering are in sin…just that our world is so broken that it stands to reason we would suffer.

  10. Blair says

    This is exactly what Satan is doing. Please read the listed below articles by Sue Becker. I believe that gluten problem stems from all the extra gluten that is added to processed foods that most people eat and to the removal of the healthy bran and germ from our bread. God never intended for our food to have that much extra gluten. We have been glutened to death and not realized it. If we ate food as God designed it, this would not happen. This is what happens when man thinks that his way is better. “There is a way that seems right to a man, but in the end leads to death.”

    • Katie Kimball @ Kitchen Stewardship says

      Breadbeckers is an awesome resource! I’ve linked to their phytic acid post many times. “Glutened to deaht” = so true! And I love bread, too…we miss it around here! :) Katie

  11. Lily says

    Very interesting! I have been to several churches recently which have separate gluten free bread for communion, just as churches started using grape juice when people became sensitive about alcohol (and/or about the same time as prohibition — Welch’s invented grape juice for this purpose). I don’t know if the Catholic church is strict about using only wheat bread and wine, but I’d think that it’s the act of taking Communion and not the materials used that count. I come from a Baptist/Mennonite background, where Communion is secondary in importance and meaning to Baptism, so take my thoughts with that in mind. I attended an Anglican church for a year in college, and I always think of that church’s “Communion Style” as the most meaningful I have experienced, because they take the time to say a blessing for each person and element — they provide different options for wine/juice/bread.

    I have often jokingly said that I am a vegetarian who sometimes eats fish, because fish is one of the few things we have record of Jesus eating and serving his disciples (along with bread and wine) specifically mentioned by name. The book of Acts has that bit about everything being good to eat, but then Paul’s letters ask people to be sensitive about the dietary restrictions of others. It was a big deal back then for Jews (with very restrictive diets) to eat with people from other cultures (with diets that included things that were forbidden to Jews). With the expansion of the Gospel beyond Jewish culture came a multitude of different eating traditions and taboos. A lot of dietary flexibility is required to make this work! All this to say, that, “It is not what goes into the mouth that defiles a person, but what comes out of the mouth; this defiles a person” (Mt 15:11-Matthew 15 has a lot to say on food traditions!).

    Maybe the church needs to be more flexible and provide gluten free bread. On the other hand, maybe God can protect your family from a little bit of gluten in this situation!

    • Louisa says

      Jesus also ate lamb. The bible may not specifically say it, but if he celebrated passover according to the law he had to.

    • Katie Kimball @ Kitchen Stewardship says

      Thank you for these references, Lily! The Catholic Church does allow gluten free hosts, but not without special discussion with the priest (and probably bringing your own host). :) Katie

  12. says

    I agree that bread was a cultural common denominator – rich or poor, in that time and place all ate bread (and drank wine). Jesus too was offering something for everyone regardless of station, so his metaphor conveyed that directly. I also agree with the references to gut health and GAPS-style protocols in this issue, and am immediately reminded that what bread and wine *had* in common is fermentation, which makes them more than grapes and wheat, as Jesus was more than a man.
    What these ingredients can become after they appear to die (mold or rot) is more delicious and nutritious than what they started as. Sound familiar?
    Perhaps the sloth that separates us from our daily bread is not only that we want twice the crop yield for half the inputs, or that we want manna to fall from a certain scottish restaurant’s drive-through window, but that we think that wheat can become life-giving bread instantly.

      • Blair says

        That is incorrect. Unleavened bread was and still is used in Passover and Communion. That means it was not sourdough.

        • Denise says

          You are correct, Blair. All bread for the observance of the Last Supper was unleavened. Yeast was symbolic of sin and was not present in the bread used.

          • Blair says

            Here is the Bible verse:
            Exodus 12:39 “With the dough the Israelites had brought from Egypt, they baked loaves of unleavened bread. The dough was without yeast because they had been driven out of Egypt and did not have time to prepare food for themselves.” Passover is also known as the Festival of Unleavened Bread.

    • Katie Kimball @ Kitchen Stewardship says

      Wow, what awesome insight to add! True that Passover bread and communion itself wasn’t leavened at all, but the comparison to “regular” bread of the time vs. of our time is clear and poignant. Wow! We’re certainly not overindulging on unleavened crispy wafers, but on all the other “quick” bread and gluten-containing products available. Thank you!!
      :) Katie

      • says

        In Nourishing Traditions, it says that the tradition of a once-a-year purge of leavened products had a detoxifying effect … in other words, that unsoaked grains might not be for every day, but they do have their place.

  13. Cathy says

    Try einkorn wheat! It’s the ancient wheat that was most likely eaten during jesus’s time. I gave gluten sensitivity, but I can consume it with no symptoms. I’ve read of Celiacs that can eat it as well. Google it, the stuff is amazing! It’s wheat as the Lord created it, not the hybridized indigestible stuff we call wheat now days.

    • Blair says

      Hybridization does not make wheat indigestible. It is a lack of enzymes in one’s gut that makes it difficult to digest wheat. Einkorn wheat is better digested by those with gluten issues because has less. By the way, gluten is not bad, it is just protein. It is the additional gluten that is added to our processed food that has caused many to have this intolerance or sensitivity.

      • Denise says

        The jury is out on that one. Hybridization has indeed been implicated. GMO is also closely tied as it can cause intestinal permeability – leaky gut- and cause an immune reaction, which is what causes celiac – not indigestibility.

        No one explanation covers it all so your blanket statement is not necessarily correct in all cases.

        Starting in the 1960′s, and increasingly in the 1990′s, plant breeders undertook efforts to produce hybrid wheat varieties with the goals of improving yield and disease resistance. Both worthwhile goals but it’s possible that wheat hybridization may have led to the rapidly growing prevalence of celiac disease today.

        We learn that not all gluten is created equally. A study identifies that, “Gluten proteins from wheat can induce celiac disease (CD) in genetically susceptible individuals. Specific gluten peptides can be presented by antigen presenting cells to gluten-sensitive T-cell lymphocytes leading to CD.”1

        The same abstract explains that a study of over 80 varieties of wheat shows a higher concentration of two CD epitopes (Glia-α9 and Glia-α20) in the more modern varieties of wheat.

        This study suggests the possibility that hybridization of wheat may be an underlying cause for the recent rise in CD. ~ From the Einkorn website.

        • Blair says

          I guess we will have to agree to disagree on hybridization. IMHO the problem with gluten, which is just protein, is that man has separated it from the wheat seed and added it in great quantity to many processed foods that people eat every day. In 1910, steel mills began removing the bran and wheat germ from our wheat to make it shelf stable. This gave rise to white bread and with it many diseases such as Beriberi and Pellagra. The government begged the millers to add these ingredients back into the bread but they would not because they made too much money on selling the bran and wheat germ in secondary markets. They did agree to “enrich” the bread with synthetic vitamins which stopped the Beriberi and Pellagra outbreaks but it has caused many other vitamin deficiencies in our population. I agree with you about the GMOs and leaky gut syndrome. That has caused much harm and is quite possibly part of the bigger picture with these diseases. But, for many people, wheat protein does not cause a digestion problem. I believe it is the additional gluten that is added to our foods that cause the problem. When you take a substance that God intended to be eaten as a whole and separate out parts of it to be added in great quantities to other foods, you create and imbalance, and that causes health problems. We have been glutened to death.

          • Katie Kimball @ Kitchen Stewardship says

            Yes, overdoing the gluten as an additive in foods (especially whole wheat bread with EXTRA gluten to make it fluffy) is definitely one theory as to the cause in the rise of gluten sensitivity. Interestingly, the exact same reason is tied into hybridization – one of the ways we’ve altered wheat is to increase the gluten percentage, for the aforementioned fluffy bread. So even just eating wheat with no additives, we’re already maxing out on gluten more than our ancestors. Again, like you said so well, when we take apart what God created and put into effect our power plays (and gluttony), it all comes back to man (at the temptation of Satan, perhaps?) messing things up for ourselves…

            Thanks for sharing!
            :) Katie

            • Blair Massey says

              Thanks for your reply, Katie. I think that the many health problems people face today has a lot to do with gut health. As you probably know, bad gut health that leads to digestion problems and vitamin deficiency. Probiotics are missing from the standard American diet. We are the only country in the world that does not daily consume some sort of fermented food. I have always wondered if gluten intolerance could be prevented with good gut health.

            • Janette says

              I did not realize the reason more gluten is added to bread is to make it “fluffy”. I make whole wheat bread and soak my flour overnight and it turns out light and fluffy, no extra gluten needed. I agree that we are to use the whole grain and not take it apart and get it unbalanced.

        • Katie Kimball @ Kitchen Stewardship says

          Thanks, Denise! There are so many theories on the rise of gluten sensitivity/Celiac, aren’t there? It’s mind-boggling. Any way we spin it, it does seem that we have created the mess for ourselves, though, which lends a lot of credence to the idea that when any of us sin, it hurts the whole community (whether we can immediately see those effects or not). Ah, how I long for Eden some days! :) Katie

    • Katie Kimball @ Kitchen Stewardship says

      We’ve used einkorn pasta and flour, too – good stuff. Blair is right that wheat isn’t on its own indigestible, and our nation’s health issues almost certainly have to do with poor gut health – some of which, for some people (like my husband) may come back to a gluten sensitivity wreaking havoc on his gut. Hopefully he can heal someday via a diet like GAPS, but we’re just not quite there yet…

      I’m guessing (opinion here) that if we all at only einkorn wheat from birth, we would not have gluten intolerances. Now that we have one, einkorn is part of the answer, but healing the gut has to be a part, too, since gluten is still present in einkorn wheat. So tricky!
      :) Katie

  14. Erica says

    Loved this post! I’m LDS, so I find it fascinating to learn more about the Catholic faith and I love to see how devoted you and your family are to your religion.

    • says

      Welcome, Erica!

      I found Katie’s site as a resource for healthy eating, but she’s certainly caused me to think more deeply about my Catholic faith as well.

      Glad to see that this is a safe place where we can express ourselves without fear of exclusion or name-calling.

        • Blair Massey says

          Yes, Gail. It is not good for anyone in any form. For one, it can cause women to become estrogen dominate which affects their hormone balance. Think PMS and menopause issues such as hot flashes. There are many negative side effects associated with soy. Please read the article I linked to above. It explains all of it.

        • Katie Kimball @ Kitchen Stewardship says

          In the traditional foods perspective, soy was never consumed without being long-fermented, like miso or traditional soy sauce. Fermented soy has health benefits, but as Blair explained so well (you should be a contributing writer here, Blair!) it is fraught with issues otherwise. Super scary to me that it’s in so many baby formulas…
          :) Katie

          • Blair Massey says

            I agree about how scary it is that soy is in baby formulas. It will be interesting to see how these children do in the years to come. I pray that there are not long term health issues for them.

            Hmmm… a guest post might be fun 😉

  15. Lydia says

    Hi Katie,
    Thanks for the post, it is great! Our family of 7 has 3 members that our gluten sensitive, this includes me and 2 children. My daughter and I were sensitive to the hosts used for communion, so our priest ordered some hosts from “Low Gluten Altar Breads”. They contain “Less than 0.01% gluten content. Ingredients: wheat starch, water, prayer”. While I was at my most sensitive I could have these hosts on Sunday, but not at Daily Mass. They still contain wheat so they are a valid source from consecration, but it is only the starch and therefore not a significant source of gluten. We kept the hosts stored in our freezer and took 2 with us each Sunday in a pix. Father consecrated the hosts by placing the pix on the altar next to, but not touching the other hosts. We received communion and took the empty pix home with us. This was very helpful for us while we spent 18 mos. gluten free. We can now have soaked grains and occasional gluten, but definitely know if we’ve had too much. The hosts are from the Benedictine Sisters of Perpetual Adoration and are approved by the USCCB.

    • Lydia says

      I should add that I thought that we couldn’t receive daily without sensitivity issues because Father did have to touch the other hosts before touching ours to give them to us. I did have a priest from a neighboring parish allow my daughter and I to take the consecrated host from the pix ourselves, so that he never touched them. I also never encountered a priest who wasn’t willing to help us, but I did have a priest who didn’t understand and put our hosts in with the others because he had trouble getting them out of the pix, right as we were to receive. Oh well, offered up the suffering which wasn’t bad.

    • Renee says

      Just a quick note- while I am not gluten sensitive, I would like to add for those of you in this conundrum a thought: as Catholics, we believe in the full Presence of Christ, Body, Blood, Soul, and Divnity in the bread and wine after the Consecration. Therefore, it stands to reason that the smallest crumb will still be completely Christ. (notice the practice of a server holding a paten under the priest’s hand that carries the hosts to the Communicant’s lips– if they follow proper protocol). The priest takes great care to wipe the paten at after everyone has received Communion into the chalice before adding some water, swirling the chalice, and consuming what is left. So, it is possible to receive the tiniest crumb and still receive Communion. I know some people are very sensitive to even that, but there you have it.

      • Katie Kimball @ Kitchen Stewardship says

        Thank you for this note! Reverence for even the smallest crumb shows our faith, and is a great answer to non-Celiac gluten-sensitive folks. :) Katie

    • Katie Kimball @ Kitchen Stewardship says

      Thank you! Good to have this information attached to the post so I can find it when people ask me…

      :) Katie

  16. Jen says

    Katie, this is such a wonderful and well thought out concept. Thank you for your insight. And, yes, I believe this is exactly how Satan would attack the church. God bless your Lenten journey this year.

  17. Eileen says

    As a christian we know there a lot of Godly principals that operate in the universe. Even nonchristians recognize many of them like the principal of giving and forgiving. Henry Wright shares these truths and has seen tens of thousands of people healed. He doesn’t pray for your healing he teaches the biblical principals and people who apply them to their lives have diseases just leave their body. I’ve read his book A more excellent way and my good friends went to his workshop. We’ve both seems these principals bring healing. The testimonies are amazing. You might check him out at: . You can watch a video at As with any thing Godly, there are alway naysayers but the proof is in the pudding. Think of all the religious people who didn’t believe in Jesus. I encourage you to read his book and decide your yourself.

  18. Sandy. says

    You’ve already answered your own question, and given yourself the direction you should go in discussing this with your kids: “In fact, I hate the fact that food has wormed its way into even the religion class, where now I have to move past that page quickly or hope Paul doesn’t ask any questions about why God says bread is good and Mom says bread is bad.” . . . . “In the garden, the serpent perverted the beauty of the Tree of Life and tricked Adam and Eve into wishing to be like God, disobeying Him, and choosing power over love.” . . . . “It stands to reason that if God Himself heaps honor on bread, on wheat, that it is precisely that food that Satan would choose to attack through the weakness and pride of men.”

    Incidentally, there’s no earthly (or, more to the point, Scriptural!) reason why Communion bread or wafers must be made with wheat flour; lots of other grains (and legumes – Ezekiel’s diet has been brought up here, at least once) were used for bread in ancient Israel.

    • Katie Kimball @ Kitchen Stewardship says

      Good point! My son understands that there is evil in the world, so there’s no reason I can’t use this adult explanation with him. Thanks for pointing it out (smacks own forehead). 😉

      In the Catholic Church, there actually are rubrics determining what the Communion wafers can be made of, put there so that we don’t start consecrating Pop Tarts and kool aid, for example. There are gluten-free hosts available, but it takes some hoops to jump through that I haven’t even looked into yet.
      :) Katie

  19. Sarah W says

    Very interesting! I do reflect on the amount of various food issues that seem so prevalent nowadays, but hadn’t specifically thought Satan might be attacking bread above all b/c Jesus called himself the bread of life.

    I don’t think we can boil down all food issues to one or two things… but like Katie said in her post, Satan perverted the beauty of the tree of life. I think ever since The Fall, we have been at odds and out of sync with nature. Perhaps nowadays we are even MORE out of touch with nature as God gave it to us, which is why we don’t know what to eat or how to eat it. (Even us real foodies disagree sometimes!)

  20. Eve says

    GREAT post! I had been wondering a few years ago, also, why wheat would cause so many issues when Our Lord chose it as the vehicle for transubstantiation. I came to the conclusion, as others had said, that it is not the same wheat from Our Lord’s time. It was probably Einkorn or Emmer. But I like your thought!! Of course Satan would attack wheat. It is what is used for the host these days, so Ancient wheat aside, your thought makes so much sense. Thank you, and keep it up!!

    • Katie Kimball @ Kitchen Stewardship says

      Well, as long as it makes sense you you, Darryl, I’ve done my job here. Thanks for commenting, Katie

  21. Stephanie says

    Great post, Katie! I’ve never thought about this before, but I agree with you! Of course Satan would tamper with the very food that God chose to nourish us with both physically and spiritually. Thank you for sharing this!

  22. Janice says

    I believe the problem lies in the way wheat was and is handled…wheat is one of the TOP agricultural products in the USA that is contaminated with fungus. DO SOME RESEARCH -it’s worth the time…and check out ‘know the cause’ website. You’ll find answers to some of your questions and much more! Doing your own research is important & May change your life for the better…

      • Janice says

        It doesn’t cost anything to read…you can also check his books at the local library for free…my life was changed because of the information I received from the public television show he had years ago-and i think still has-free also…please don’t disregard something so valuable so easily…I know God has used that man for helping others! Many others…

    • Katie Kimball @ Kitchen Stewardship says

      Thanks – Knowthecause has been often recommended – remains the same point, that wheat is attacked and we should avoid it if it causes us problems. Thanks! :) Katie

  23. Jess e. says

    Very thought provoking ms. Katie! I really enjoyed reading your thoughts & look forward to pondering this for the next little while. Peace to you and yours.

  24. says

    You hate that food has become a part of religion class…I understand this because I am none too thrilled that religion has wormed its way into science class. Maybe satan hates science!

  25. Karen says

    Very interesting post and concept. I just wanted to let everyone know that bread at the time of Jesus and before was not made from wheat. And it was whole grain and made with sourdough. We get sick from wheat today because there is too much gluten in it today and our digestive system are poor. Back in those days, even if bread was wheat, their digestive system could take it no problem. So, of course, bread is not evil, it is today’s situation (gluten and poor digestive health) that make it so.

  26. Denise says

    I am Baptist and do not believe the Bible teaches transubstantiation – anywhere. But I have a question. If the host is transformed into Christ’s flesh then wouldn’t it be no longer wheat with gluten in it? How would it them present a problem for a celiac?

    Is it a symbolic transformation or is it believed to be literal?

    I just read the article posted above from J and it seems to teach that the bread actually becomes flesh. If it does, then it wouldn’t be a problem. Anyone have a response or another link I can read?

    • Sarah W says

      Dear Denise,
      The Catholic faith teaches that the bread and wine do indeed become Christ’s body, blood, soul and divinity – but they remain under the appearance of bread and wine. So it IS truly Christ’s flesh, yet at the same time, it retains the physical properties it had before (containing wheat, gluten, alcohol in the wine, etc.)

      Even for faithful Catholics, this is mysterious and difficult to understand, yet it is our faith. Jesus’ words “This is my body” and “this is my blood,” we take literally. Furthermore, in John 6, Jesus tells the people around him that they must EAT his flesh and the original language uses a word that means something like “chew” or “gnaw,” so it cannot be taken in any figurative way. That explains the response of many in the crowd who were completely baffled by what he was saying and many could not accept it. But for those who could not, Jesus let them go – he did not say “Wait! You misunderstood me, I only meant ‘eat’ in a figurative way!” Jesus’ words were clear, and they understood, but they could not believe/accept it.

      Throughout the centuries, there have been many Eucharistic miracles by which the consecrated bread and/or wine have changed into actual flesh (heart tissue) and blood. These miracles have been gifts to help our faith b/c this is a mysterious belief. They are fascinating to learn about.

      It is true the word “transubstantiation” is not in the Bible, but the teaching is there. Similarly, the word “trinity” is not in the Bible. Do you believe in the Holy Trinity?

      If you are interested in reading more from scholars and professionals, I recommend the website as a good place to start. There are lots of searchable articles as well as discussion forums where you can search on various topics and get answers from apologists and scholars.

      In Christ,
      Sarah W.

  27. Natsha says

    You have removed the blinders of many with this info, great job and thank you for being obedient to Him in your post. Praise God for this revelation to many lives to see it in a clearer view!

  28. Sarah W says

    Just wanted to mention that Catholics with gluten issues should also be able to receive communion only under the species of the precious blood. Both the consecrated bread and wine are completely Christ’s body, blood, soul, and divinity. I realize there are times where the precious blood may not be normally offered to the whole congregation (such as daily mass often times), but if one can ask a priest to consecrate a few low-gluten hosts, I would think most priests would also accomodate a request to receive only the precious blood. The Catholics in the audience probably already knew that, but I just wanted to throw that out there anyways!

  29. Susan via Facebook says

    An excellent post! We still love homemade bread in our house, but I think you are spot on about the religious aspects. Satan often takes something which God created to be good and perverts it, or perverts our desire for it, right?

  30. Susan via Facebook says

    An excellent post! We still love homemade bread in our house, but I think you are spot on about the religious aspects. Satan often takes something which God created to be good and perverts it, or perverts our desire for it, right?

  31. Terry Claxton says

    Wow!!! Great article. I had not thought of tying wheat\bread with the devil. Profound!
    I have read and believe there is a link between childhood vaccinations with digestive problems like Crohn’s, later in life. has good articles on the subject.

  32. Britta via Facebook says

    Never even thought about bread in this way. Such an intriguing insight and something to ponder more deeply!

  33. Britta via Facebook says

    Never even thought about bread in this way. Such an intriguing insight and something to ponder more deeply!

  34. says

    I have heard similar reasoning from alcoholics who are not able to receive the wine at Communion (because it would trigger them to start drinking again) and agonize over why God would do such a thing to so many people. I think your reasoning makes a lot of sense.

    Thanks, Sarah W., for pointing out that Catholics are allowed to receive only the wine or only the bread, if necessary, and still get full Communion. I had been wondering if this was Catholic teaching, since it is what we believe in The Episcopal Church. I’m relieved, though, that although I seem to have developed an allergy to alcohol and can no longer drink even an ounce without swollen hands, nausea, and other symptoms, still the single sip at Communion seems to be all right for me.

  35. says

    I really appreciate your willingness to tackle this subject, but I think there’s another explanation that’s more likely. Our overall poor stewardship of God’s Creation (of which reckless hybridization and genetic modification of crops is just a small part) has created a physical environment that causes far more people to be born with or develop hyperactive inflammatory systems. And so many things that God says are good (again, bread being just one of them) become irritating or downright dangerous to us. But, thankfully, allergies and sensitivities of all kinds were defeated at the Cross. As we take commonsense steps to keep ourselves healthy, we can also stand in faith for completed healing of those illnesses. It’s part of “Thy kingdom come, thy will be done ON EARTH as it is in Heaven.” Jesus wanted us to know that we can start seeing all kinds of Kingdom work NOW.

  36. Jaclyn says

    Ok, so I have not had time to read all the comments because there are TONS, but I need to say a few things that are on my mind at initial response. I’ve been reading a handful of your posts lately (one that really comes to mind is the food in the garden and how we need to eat food in season as God intended and so on… I’m sure you know which one I’m referring to with that much. ) But As a Christian who has a bible degree I have had a lot of hesitation in things on your posts. The reason Christ said He is the bread of life is NOT because he was lifting up bread. He really doesn’t do that in the bible at all. He uses bread a lot because it was the main sustenance for the culture back then. They needed it. Really needed it. He wasn’t trying to lift up bread for them, he was trying to emphasize that they needed HIM as a comparison to how they did need bread in their daily lives due to culture and poverty. He used it to feed many because it was what the culture continually ate.

    I also feel the need to clarify that gluttony has nothing to do with glutton. It does have to do with eating when you do not need to. You don’t have to be fat to be a glutton either. You can be an emotional eater and that is gluttony. I have a tendency to fall into that one easy. Or someone who eats out of boredom.

    I am so very hesitant to those who quickly decide to cut out glutton from their diet. I know some do need this and have severe issues with it. I get that!! But there are many who cut it out of their diet because they are believing that it’s just a way to eat healthier, and what person these days doesn’t want to eat healthier. There are so many ways and fads to do this that it’s over complicating the whole concept. (I do love that people want to be good stewards of their body and treat it well though!! I’m not saying anything about that!!) BUT those who don’t need a gluten free diet are also missing nutrients that are important to them otherwise. And it’s a very hard diet to keep if your going to be perfect about it. But that’s just a side note.

    I know this is not from this post, and I chose not to comment on the other post about eating in season (which I do think is a good idea) but with that post AND this one, the way you are sounding as though your belief is it is a sin to eat things like bread we have altered somehow, or fruits and veggies that are not in season. I had a few hermeneutical issues with the other post as well, the biggest one being that there is NO evidence that the seasons are a result of the fall that God had to do to make things harder. They still had to plant things and such but it wasn’t “work” for them and the ground wasn’t difficult. They still had to reap the plants to eat before the fall. Meat was not introduced until the fall and that is found in scripture. Seasons are not. Not anywhere I have seen, other then a time to cry, a time to rejoice and so on. (very very loose quote of that… but you know what I am speaking of.)

    Anyway, I’m just having a hard time as I read, seeing that you have good topics and lots to say and help in educating people on eating healthy, but the scripture and exegesis behind it is not really supporting it. In fact, the hermeneutics your using when truly taken for what they are, are actually condemning those that are not eating the way your suggesting. Condemning sounds strong… and it may be more of accusing of being sinful. Yes we need to take care of our bodies in a God honoring way, but also remember that becoming so focused on food is also making food your idol, no matter how healthy your eating.

    I don’t know if I’ve said everything the way I wanted to, and I have to get dinner out of the oven for my family at this very moment, so I don’t have time to go back and read it, but please know that I am not intending to be offensive. I am simply wanting to bring some points to the table that God has brought to my heart and has not left me alone with for about a week or so of reading your postings. So I figured it was about time I mentioned something.

    • Katie Kimball @ Kitchen Stewardship says

      I definitely appreciate you taking the time to comment, especially if you had a lack of peace in your heart about this and felt God urging you to speak.

      My first response is really simple – I don’t think I was the author of the ‘eating in season’ post you mentioned! I’d love to read it and see what I think, actually, but I really don’t know which blogger that was. I def. didn’t post anything this month about eating in season (as we munch on oranges and grapefruits and cucumbers here in Michigan…). I can’t even think of anything in my archives about seasonal eating as an act of faith. ???
      I agree that there’s a huge risk in the healthy eating world to make food an idol and try to check myself often to make sure I’m not going over the line. When I mentioned gluttony as Satan’s way of harming us via bread, it wasn’t saying that a person eating gluten (bread) is sinful, but rather that our portion sizes, convenience foods as a culture that promote gluttony, and simply eating too much gluten overall, over time, not one specific person, may have played into gluten intolerances in general. No, despite the similarity in spelling, I know that gluten (wheat protein) has nothing to do with gluttony (sinful eating of any kind).

      On this post, I was simply suggesting that perhaps the reason that bread, although such a huge, positive part of Scripture, has become a negative thing for folks. Negativity is not of God…so it might be Satan’s attack. Did it sound like I was demonizing bread or telling folks not to eat it b/c it was inherently bad? If it did, mea culpa – absolutely not my intent. In fact, I wasn’t trying to make any call to action or suggestion for eating habits at all here, just posing a philosophical (theological) question and exploring it a smidge.

      I’m terribly sorry to have caused discontent in your heart; please forgive.
      Thanks, Katie

  37. Elisabeth via Facebook says

    I appreciate that you made that edit. It’s so important IMO to get the facts right so that the issue doesn’t become clouded with what is/isn’t true.

Take a Bite (of conversation)

Your email address will not be published. Required fields are marked *