I’ve always hated white bread. It’s too sticky and feels like it’s reverting to dough in my mouth.
Imagine my shock when not one, but THREE of the five “expert” panelists on my Soaking Grains Debate weighed in with an opinion in favor of white flour, in one way or another. (Meet them all here and see all the posts so far here.)
It made me want to go buy a loaf of Wonderbread. And then throw it at my computer screen. Or maybe feed it to the ducks.
Is there no sanity when it comes to grains?
Pardon my little rant. Quite honestly, I know a lot of you are tracking this “debate”, and I want to put yours minds at ease with a few FAQs before I explain the white bread opinions.
What People are Asking Katie
- Are you soaking currently? I am still soaking my whole grains, most of the time.
- I got totally lost when you started quoting those high-fallutin’ experts. Can you break it down a bit? Eventually I will have some sort of bulleted list of point/counterpoint, probably when I get close to that post “To Soak or Not to Soak” that will be my personal final answer on the whole deal.
- Is this really worth all the research? I dunno. It’s interesting to me that there’s so much information and yet so few definitive answers out there. I want to find the balance between (1) tradition, what has been done for 1000s of years, (2) personal evidence, what seems to work well for people, and (3) hard science, to explain what is happening, how it works and the process that is optimal.
- What’s the final answer? Does soaking “work”? Without revealing everything, know that I place value on anecdotal evidence as well, and there you can find many people who are certain soaking grains helps them either digest grains more easily or tolerate grains, period. There will be an “anecdotal” post coming at some point with more details.
- UPDATE: Do check out the comments at this post for some interesting conversation. Also – let it be clear that I’m not really advocating white bread! I’m presenting some opinions of people who do some research, but I think I mainly agree with the third opinion below. Some white flour is okay in baking, but whole grains still should be soaked, if in fact soaking is the traditional and research-based way to go!
The White Bread Manifesto
I asked Sally Fallon about the times when perhaps she didn’t plan ahead and soak, or when she was eating out and didn’t have a soaked option:
Me: What’s better – white or whole wheat flour? Is unsoaked whole wheat so dangerous that we shouldn’t even eat it as a compromise food?
SF: If I have forgotten to soak my oats, I just don’t eat them–they give me a huge stomach ache if I don’t soak them. I have eggs and bacon instead. When traveling, I try to avoid grains, although if I feel I really need some butter, I will eat a small piece of white bread with a huge amount of butter on it. I do think unsoaked whole wheat is dangerous, especially if you eat a lot of it and if your diet is low in fat. Occasionally I make a pie and use unbleached white flour for that.
My husband’s response: I know what it feels like to need water, or to crave sugar, but what does it feel like to really need some butter? I know, my husband’s not an expert, but we had a good laugh trying to imagine the need for buh-dah!
I doubt that’s nearly enough butter for Sally Fallon!
I asked Dr. Teri O’Brien, the grains scientist from Australia, “What kind of bread do you eat and for what reasons?”
His reply: Usually cheapest white as it is as good as anything else for anyone that takes a mineral and vitamin supplement daily, and eats well anyway.
Later on after trying to point out the ridiculousness of Sally Fallon’s claims of soaking reducing aflatoxins – because aflatoxins are some of the most toxic substances known to man, and “reducing” them isn’t going to help much! – he said:
Why use these [whole grains] as food when all they give you is a potential headache avoidable with white flour, and an expensive form of fibre, better achieved from fibrous vegetables? I rest my case. …Phytates are minimal in white flour, so let us eat white bread on the arguments of these good folk.
Dr. O’Brien is of the mindset that since most of the minerals in whole grains are bound up with the phytic acid and unusable by our bodies, one might as well just get rid of the bran, which is the part that causes the problems. He feels that the only value of whole grains, in light of the phytic acid issue, is fiber, and that there are many, better, less expensive ways to get one’s daily fiber intake.
Like a hearty salad…
The final panelist to weight in on the value of white bread (flour, actually) is Dr. Stephan Guyenet, who commented at my last post, “This O’Brien guy is posing as an expert but he is totally ignorant.” To which I responded in my head, “Gulp. Um. Uh.”
I did email Dr. Guyenet a response along with Dr. O’Brien’s impressive resume. His reply, in part, is dead on: “It gets under my skin when academics are unable to say ‘I don’t know’, and instead engage in speculation.” That’s where I get fed up with some of the information promulgated on soaking, because people are trying to be scientific without proper science, and I’d like to see them admit that they’re ultimately speculating. See the comment from Shannon of Nourishing Days here for a brief assessment of the situation that resonates with me.
Here is Dr. Guyenet’s virtual “thumbs up” for white flour:
If you look at healthy traditional cultures with a high intake of grains, they typically remove part of the bran, grind the grain and then ferment it. This can be accomplished in a variety of manners. The partial de-branning can be mimicked today by mixing whole and refined grains. (emphasis mine)
That’s another way of saying to use whole wheat flour and white flour in your baked goods. Not that I swallow the advice of every person who comes along, but I am so encouraged by this point! There are many, many recipes that call for half and half whole and white flour, and I’m pleased to begin to think of those as less “compromise” foods and more “traditional” foods. The soaking – or sourdoughing for sure – of the whole grains is still an important step, I feel I must point out.
When I made sure to clarify that I was hearing this white flour recommendation correctly, Dr. Guyenet had yet another stellar response (and thanks for writing my post today, all of you!):
I am saying that 100% whole wheat flour is probably not what our ancestors consumed. Traditional cultures had a variety of ways of reducing bran. Our ancestors probably took stone ground rye and wheat, and sifted out as much bran as possible. This would have been the norm until the mid to late 1800s in Western countries, when mechanical “low-extraction” milling took over. You can find references to this in old writings about flour milling.
Africans grind grains and sieve them to remove bran. Indians, Japanese and Chinese pounded rice to remove part of the bran and germ before further processing (before the advent of mechanical rice milling in the 1800s). My guess based on what I’ve read is that they would have removed 50-80% of the bran. Thus, between a 1:1 and 1:3 ratio of whole wheat to white flour would be a good approximation.
However, I’m not a proponent of wheat in general. I prefer fermented savory “pancakes” and porridges made from fermented rice and lentils (dosa/uppatham) or buckwheat. Wheat is problematic for many people in my opinion. If you do choose to eat wheat, a sourdough made from a mixture of whole and unbleached white flour is the way to go.
There you have it, folks. Three experts on grains, soaking grains, and/or phytic acid and phytates who find some value in white flour. Just when I thought I had to eradicate it from my house…
Because I know you all count on me to bring some balance and humor to the whole situation, in case you think white bread is evil as many people do, here’s a thought from one of my favorite phytic acid obsessed cohorts, who will remain nameless, just to add to the mystery: “Is the Australian really recommending white bread? If so, I think you should just put he and Fallon in a ring and see who wins.”
Photos by Roadsidepictures, abbey*christine, EG Focus and gurke.
I’m always pleased to participate in Pennywise Platter Thursday at The Nourishing Gourmet. Because white bread is CHEAP! 
Be a rebel at Fight Back Friday!
Well. That’s certainly interesting. And I’m so tired of trying to figure out what’s best. At least I feel better about the fact that I usually forget (or don’t have time) to soak my grains. Of course, that means I’m eating the wheat without soaking, which may be worse?? *le sigh*
.-= Musings of a Housewife´s last blog ..American Idol Season 9 Finale Results Show =-.
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Katie Reply:
May 27th, 2010 at 4:42 pm
M ofa H,
Katie
I’m so sorry to be making you “le sigh”. I didn’t want to drag people down with me! Ok…maybe I did want some folks to commiserate with me, but ultimately, let’s remember that we’re still eating better than a crazy %age of the population, and unless you have some sort of mineral deficiency or disease, whatever you do is probably fine…you know? I’ll come over to your house for some of your fresh-baked, unsoaked bread ANY time, my dear! Yum!
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I do enjoy reading all your research, and I’m waiting to see what the final conclusion is! Right now we’re mixing white and wheat flours, mainly because I have A LOT of white flour leftover and am trying to get rid of it. Maybe I don’t need to get rid of it just yet…
.-= Greta @ Mom Living Healthy´s last blog ..There is Life in the Garden! =-.
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Great series!
I had the same thought about the butter -what is it like to feel like you really need butter?
I find what Dr. Guyenet had to say interesting. I think about China or Japan where polished white rice is the popular grain, and brown rice is much more difficult to find. And isn’t rural China still a very traditional culture?
I’d be interested in how he makes his ‘pancakes’ from rice and lentils.
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Katie Reply:
May 27th, 2010 at 4:46 pm
Metta, they’re called dosas: http://www.kitchenstewardship.com/recipes/indian-dosas/
Katie
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Huh?! Whaaaa?! Now I’m really confused…
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Alicia Reply:
May 29th, 2010 at 2:27 pm
Seriously.
.-= Alicia´s last blog ..Bits from the Blogosphere: Buying Vanilla Beans and More… =-.
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Hm.. interesting. Just when I thought it couldn’t get more complicated! Sounds logical, though.
.-= Debbie´s last blog ..WFMW: Getting the inside scoop when job hunting =-.
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What about sprouted grains? And is buckwheat better than wheat?
I’m still confused but I usually am…
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Katie Reply:
May 28th, 2010 at 3:45 pm
Tina,
Katie
Buckwheat is gluten free, so I think Dr G would say yes, but I’m not sure. I talked sprouting grains previously and will return to it again, too. Thanks!
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I got the impression from Sally’s presentation that traditional people soaked their grains/grain products for a really long time, ie 2 weeks or more. I’ve wondered how much good the soaking overnight or for a day really is. I made a strawberry rhubarb crisp recently that had a crust with dough that I had soaked for a week or two? I had forgotten about it and thought it would be moldy, but it wasn’t. It did smell like alcohol, but when baked you couldn’t really even notice.
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Wow. Interesting! So basically sourdough “mostly” white bread seems to be the best choice for wheat bread eaters?
On sourdough starters – I recommend anyone wanting to make their own starter to visit the Breadtopia.com site for the pineapple juice method. It made the most fantastic starter!
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Thanks for all this great research. I’ve been checking my blood sugar more often, so as to stick with a diet that won’t lead me down the path of diabetes, and I’ve found that my blood sugar is lower if I stick with whole wheat bread vs. white bread. When I lived in China it was very hard to find any sort of whole grain–it’s just not very integrated into the diet–it’s pretty much all white rice, white noodles etc. and diabetes is a really big problem there! So that’s enough to make me stick with whole wheat as much as possible.
.-= Sian Wu´s last blog ..A better place for e-waste =-.
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Katie Reply:
May 28th, 2010 at 3:29 pm
Sian,
Katie
An excellent point! We can’t take one food and its science or its nutrients in isolation; we are whole beings.
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Cheryl Reply:
October 18th, 2011 at 2:55 am
Exactly! My husband can eat Ezekiel Bread without any blood sugar issues. Give him a piece of white bread, though…
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Very interesting, though not surprising I guess. I am of the opinion that scientists aren’t really the experts that we should be asking. (and this is coming from a no longer working scientist)
What we’re really missing is the information that SHOULD have been passed down from generations previous and a bit of common sense.
The more our family moves towards a self-sufficient, agrarian way of life and thinking the more I question the use of grains in our diets. Almost everyone of us who procures grains does it not from their own backyard or a local farmer, but an industrialized monocrop (even the organics).
If we were truly eating sustainably I think we would eat very little grains.
Case in point: my husband and I are looking at buying a few acres in the middle of nowhere debt free. In order to grow grains even for our own consumption we would need many more acres. The only way we could buy more than that is through the unsustainable baking/mortgage system. So using our couple of debt-free acres to have chickens, a pig, and a very large garden makes much more sense and is more sustainable monetarily and environmentally.
Two other points (if anyone’s still listening): white flour and non-fermented grains in general constipates me. TMI, I know. and 2). our family experienced a deep need for grass-fed butter once we started eating it. We had been low-fat for years and when we started buying truly pastured butter my husband ate it off of a spoon for weeks.
.-= Shannon´s last blog ..What Real Food Bloggers Really Eat: Kara of Taste is Trump =-.
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elaine Reply:
May 28th, 2010 at 8:32 am
I eat at least a tablespoon (or more!) a day straight off the butter knife! My husband and kids nearly gag and have to leave the room but I actually crave it. I sprinkle a dash of sea salt on it and love it! I can’t wait to tell the family I’m not the only one
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Katie Reply:
May 28th, 2010 at 3:27 pm
Shannon,
Fascinating on the crop raising point. Love all the conversation on this issue! 
Katie
Heh heh, thanks for the TMI.
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Blake Reply:
May 29th, 2010 at 1:03 pm
You might want to read One Straw Revolution about growing grains. Foukoku (I don’t think that’s spelled correctly) grew 22 bushels per 1/4 acre of grain each harvest (2 harvests – one rice, one winter grain). No plowing, no inputs besides a little chicken manure now and then, little physical labor. Granted, you would have to adapt his techniques considerably, but he even says that in the book. I also have heard of other people growing rather small plots of grain, and growing enough for their own consumption. I myself have a 3 sisters plot (corn, beans, and squash) at about 6×15 ft, and while it’s my first year with it, it should provide all I need of all 3. Growing grain for yourself is very feasable, you just have to think differently. It’s not a bad thing to avoid and needs to be treated carefully, but its not inherantly bad either.
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Wow. Cutting edge is tiring. I don’t know if I can keep up! I’m still trying to figure out why everyone is still promoting whole grains in general if they aren’t so good for us after all. I’m pretty sure they don’t know near as much as you do though.
.-= Melodie´s last blog ..Madonna and Child-Like Paintings Are Obscene Too? =-.
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Ugh. I’m so tired of conflicting research. I started this healthy eating journey thing years ago and have really been feeling like I’m doing well. First, I thought I was by even using whole wheat but I haven’t even started soaking yet. Seriously, white is better? I really don’t know who to trust. I keep reading new things that blow my mind and then read something else completely. Like, don’t use olive oil unless it’s cold pressed, or it’s better to use olive oil than animal fat, or visa versa. It all makes me very tired and sceptical.
I’ll be curious your final take on all this. Do you plan to substitute white when you’re not soaking? Just curious.
Shannon
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Laura Reply:
January 22nd, 2012 at 10:54 am
Shannon, you said EXACTLY what I’m feeling too! I just started this “real/whole foods” journey a couple of weeks ago and I often feel totally overwhelmed. WHO is actually right? And HOW could we have been so “misled” by a lot of the good advice heretofore? Some of the things, like avoiding soy, I think – yeah, I agree with that research. Then I read about soaking grains and I think, What? I’ve never had a headache or stomach issue after eating 100% whole wheat bread for years and years. I guess I need to read more and decide for myself.
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Katie Reply:
January 23rd, 2012 at 2:08 am
Laura,
They’re much less confusing. This soaking grains thing, believe me, is not the place to start. And this post really just cemented that we don’t know much…and made me feel better about a half white flour compromise…but overall I’m kind of trying to stay away from gluten nowadays, actually!
If you’re just starting on whole foods, stick with vegetables!
You’ll do fine if you just take baby steps and ignore debates like these for a few years!
Katie
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i love this entire thread youve been working on. Ive been following it the whole time. Excellent critical thinking, and as always entertaining writing. Here is a link that has interesting points regarding white rice-consumption and its possible positive points:
http://www.drbenkim.com/articles-rice.html
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I’m so glad that Stephan Guyenet joined in this discussion. I’ve really learned a lot from his blog. Personally, I’m becoming increasingly convinced that wheat is best avoided unless it is sprouted and fermented, which is expensive and/or time consuming. So I plan to just avoid it as much as possible, but not freak out about a bit of white flour now and then when proper grain preparation isn’t possible.
But my big question from the above post is this: Sally Fallon eats bacon?!? When did she reverse her position on pork? In my edition of NT she claims that pig meat is the best thing for growing cancer cells in a lab, so we shouldn’t eat it. I’ve tried web searching this info without luck, but have still been avoiding pork for a number of reasons.
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Katie Reply:
May 28th, 2010 at 3:26 pm
Pamela,
Huh. I hear Fallon talk about bacon a LOT. Must have found a good source! ?? Katie
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Tosha Reply:
October 1st, 2011 at 1:55 pm
I eat turkey bacon. Maybe she does too.
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I dunno… O’Brien just sounds like someone who’s not overly concerned about nutrition. (not like us nerds!)
I had already decided that I would only maintain one sourdough starter, which is fed unbleached white flour, but this makes me feel a little better about it b/c I always just use it even when a recipe calls for WW starter.
This also makes me feel a little better about doing some more half n half recipes, and making some white bread recipes where my family doesn’t go for the WW (like hamburger buns, e.g.) But gosh, it seems like current (maintstream and alternative) nutional opinions are overwhelmingly in favor of whole grains! I understand choosing white when there are extenuating circumstances, but I couldn’t bring myself to eat it like O’Brien seems to be advocating.
RE: SF and bacon… she definitely is wary of pork in NT, but I don’t think she condemned it 100% as she pointed out a culture or two that eat a lot of pork and thrive. NT of course does not have any pork recipes though.
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Katie Reply:
May 28th, 2010 at 3:24 pm
Sarah,
Katie
I didn’t know NT doesn’t have any pork recipes! Huh. Every time I hear Fallon talk breakfast, it’s “eggs and bacon”. I agree about O’Brien. He’s a scientist, not a nutritionist. I’m sticking with mostly whole grains but letting go of the 1/2 and 1/2 bun guilt too!
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Joel Reply:
June 11th, 2011 at 1:32 pm
No pork recipies in NT because Mary Enig is Jewish. Bacon is very NT friendly! I eat it daily and often make popcorn in the fat.
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I am not persuaded. For one thing, none of them are talking about how the body handles refined foods like white flour. Insulin levels rise, etc. It seems to me as though they are neglecting a lot. I see articles like this:
http://www.naturalnews.com/008191_alloxan_diabetes.html
or this article under “health”
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Whole_grain For me: I’m reducing our wheat intake overall, using more spelt, and the (whole) wheat we use is either soaked, sprouted, or sourdough.
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im in agreement ith dr guyenet, and actually take it one step further; i personally dont eat much grains period. we can get every single nutrient found in grains in other whole foods (no vitamin needed) such as meat, eggs, veggies, fruit, cheese, etc. i do eat white rice about once a week and my kids eat grains of various kinds but we mostly do gluten-free grains in our home. just as an fyi there is a type of bron rice which is only patially “whole” called Haiga rice and it has the bran removed but leaves the germ (i think this is the case, double check if you like), so you still get some good nutrients/fiber.
.-= emily´s last blog ..Real Food Menu Plan- Thai food, seafood and more =-.
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Katie Reply:
May 28th, 2010 at 3:22 pm
Emily,
That’s good to know! I know; Dr. O’Brien is def. not a nutritionist, but it’s interesting to hear big science’s P of V.
Katie
Thanks!
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one more point worth noting; wheat of today is not the same as wheat of biblical/historical times and our bodies might not process it the same according to this cardiologist;
http://heartscanblog.blogspot.com/2010/05/in-search-of-wheat.html
.-= emily´s last blog ..Real Food Menu Plan- Thai food, seafood and more =-.
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Ahh…this makes sense the way you say it Shannon. When I first started eating coconut oil and coconut milk I craved all things coconut. It only took one bite, and the next thing I know I’m on a journey that lasted about 3 months of incorporating coconut into almost every meal.
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So, I haven’t read the comments, so I apologize for any repetitions- wanted to get this off before I had to leave.
What really angers me is when ‘scientists’ look at things in a vacum. First off, one major benifit in eating whole grains is the effect on blood sugar. White flour has an effect on blood sugar that is almost exactly like sugar.
The other thing they’re missing, is this whole concept of “if you’re getting your fiber and vitamins from other sources” concept. Fiber for fiber’s sake is unnecessary. We don’t, strictly speaking, need fiber at all. Just ask the intuit, massai, Somali nomads, etc. Fiber appears (notice the qualification- this isn’t fact, but only what seems to be the case) to be beneficial mainly in dealing with other things, such as regulating sugar absorption. So, how is a salad going to help you with that big white bread roll you ate 3 hours ago? Furthermore, the fact of the matter is, that we don’t know all about everything that is contained in the grain. We don’t even know for sure what soaking/fermenting/sprouting does. Food is so complex, science has a hard time understanding it, because it has a difficult time finding what to focus on. Our dear ‘experts’ (including SF) seem to have a hard time comprehending that.
Also, in response to the traditional cultures statement about removing bran and such, that is far too inaccurate for such a broad statement SOME traditional cultures have removed all or part of the grain on SOME grains. At the same time, a few have added extra (such as traditional Russian black bread- the upper class would get the bolted flour, and what was bolted out, mostly bran and some germ, would be added into the lower class’s flour. I know that’s stretching the use of ‘traditional,’ but the point stands. Yes, the Mexicans nixtmilize corn which dissolves bran, but it also leaves the germ undamaged. Bolting flour has for millennia been expensive and reserved for the upper classes. The only thing that has made it as cheap as it is is the invention of the roller mill. Notice how the main thing that has increased the shelf life of white flour is the exclusion of the germ. White flour is only the endosperm of the grain.
Anyway, sorry about any rambling or excess length.
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Katie Reply:
May 28th, 2010 at 3:17 pm
Blake,
Katie
Love the additions to the research! “Hear, hear” on research in a vacuum. I just think it’s interesting to explore a bit…
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It’s distressing to see how confusing and confused this question has become. Food should not be so complicated! I’m not blaming you – just commiserating. This is a difficult issue.
I became severely hypoglycemic after several years of veganism, and at that time, I also showed low organ function and problems with protein and fat absorption. So I drew way back on grains and eliminated gluten while eating a lot more protein and fat. I feel so much better this way.
As a vegetarian, whole grains formed the basis of my diet. I ate them with every single meal and sometimes as snacks. I almost never ate white flour or any other refined grains – maybe a few times a year. I didn’t know anything about sprouting, souring, or soaking, so all of my whole grains were untreated.
Over time, I developed an intolerance to wheat. Then that intolerance extended to all gluten-containing grains. And then I found that it was difficult to digest GF grains like brown rice or amaranth. I wouldn’t have an allergic reaction in the same way I did with wheat, but I would have digestion problems.
While this was happening, I developed a visceral aversion to brown rice. The sight of it, the smell of it, would make me nauseous. This, after eating it every day for almost a decade! I took it as a message from my body that this food was not good for me.
At the same time, I would occasionally crave white rice. I hated white rice as a child and brown rice became a favorite food when I started to cook for myself. I hated white bread and any of those flavorless, empty grains. And of course, for someone with blood sugar problems, refined grains are off-limits – they have the same action as sugar. So I’d beat myself up for having such a stupid craving pop up out of nowhere. But I decided to experiment with small amounts of it, always with good-quality protein and plenty of fat. I found it so soothing and comforting for my digestive system. So I just went with it, even though I “knew” that I wasn’t “supposed to” eat it.
For weeks, I ate white rice whenever I craved it, always with protein and fat, and it wouldn’t be very much, just a half-cup or so. I didn’t experience problems with my blood sugar from this small amount and combination. At the same time, I largely avoided any other grains. I did experience healing during this time, even with a “bad” food.
I still occasionally eat white rice, but I rarely have brown rice anymore as I continue to have a disgusted reaction to it. I try very hard to stay away from gluten. Occasionally, I will eat sprouted grain bread, but it’s rare. I cook on the fly and can’t handle much advance planning, so we just don’t eat many grains in our family. Instead, we have a lot more veggies, more fruit, more nuts and seeds, more eggs, more yogurt, more raw goat cheese. More nutrient density. More satisfaction. I can’t say I miss grains.
I don’t believe that grains are essential. I think that any food that requires a huge amount of processing to be edible is probably not appropriate for human consumption. Any nutrient that we get from grains can be gotten from other places, more sustainably, and without such self-doubt and potential for harm. That’s my take on it.
Thanks for listening!
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Chandelle Reply:
May 28th, 2010 at 11:44 am
(Ugh, that was insanely long. My apologies.)
.-= Chandelle´s last blog ..elsewhere =-.
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Katie Reply:
May 28th, 2010 at 3:15 pm
Chandelle,
What an awesome story and perspective. Truly, thank you for sharing. If I was the only one around here who ever “wrote a book” it would get boring!
Perhaps the whole “paradox” of Asians eating white rice and yet being so healthy isn’t a paradox after all…
Katie
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It feels like we are finally getting somewhere! Personally, I have been soaking grains for awhile and do feel they improve digestion, but I am moving more towards fermenting spelt and other options for a week or more before making bread.
For me, that doesn’t seem more involved than soaking overnight. It’s more about making big batches and getting into a routine.
On the butter thing, I am TOTALLY with Sally Fallon on that one. I am a skinny little thing (Okay, not right now. I’m six months pregnant. But usually.) and I eat pastured butter like crazy. Don’t know why I crave it so much but I am the healthiest I’ve ever been.
Oh, and by the way I am featuring this post on my blog tomorrow!
.-= Mommypotamus´s last blog ..Standard Process Cleanse: Day 12 Recipes =-.
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Katie Reply:
June 1st, 2010 at 3:07 am
Thank you for the positive thoughts! That is awesome about the butter. Fat doesn’t make you fat!
Katie
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I personally do not have problems eating grains, neither does anyone in my family, however, it makes me wonder about something – the precursors or ancestors of our modern grains are wild grass seeds, we know that early humans ate them, and have eaten the grains they developed from these wild grass seeds, for they have commonly been found in ancient archeological sites. When people say they have trouble with wheat, it’s modern wheat that they usually have problems with. When researchers talk about the benefits/detriments of wheat they are referring to modern wheat, not the older, more ancient forms of ‘wheat’ such as spelt/farro, emmer/khorosan, and einkorn. From what I’ve read our modern wheat was developed to produce a wheat with a softer hull as the precursor grains had very hard hulls that were more difficult to process. I have also heard that spelt and khorosan (i.e. kamut) have a much higher nutritional value and that people tend to not have as many problems with them as they do with modern wheat. So why bother with modern wheat at all if older cultures did not use it but used these others instead?
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Katie Reply:
June 1st, 2010 at 3:13 am
Mary,
Katie
Great question and insight! I suppose the answer is as usual with real food vs. culture: it’s easier, lighter, tastier, and more widespread. Unless you make everything from scratch, modern plain old wheat is what you’re going to find. Plus it’s less expensive. I need to try some Kamut sometime soon!
Thank you –
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This whole debate is getting old. Some of the things the “experts” say are childish. sigh.
I usually mix different types of flour when I bake (mainly spelt, unbleached and whole wheat flour.) I don’t soak my grains and I don’t really feel worse for it. I wouldn’t go back to white bread, however.
.-= kanmuri´s last blog ..Plasticless life =-.
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Katie Reply:
June 1st, 2010 at 3:18 am
Kanmuri,
Katie
We’ll have some fun experimenting soon, I hope.
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Hi, I lived in Nigeria for several years, and I saw people preparing the traditional fermented millet porridge, and yes, it is true — after soaking the millet, they take it to a grinder. After the millet is ground, they sift it through a loosely-woven cloth to get out as much of the bran as possible. Then, cook and eat! Nigerians have the most amazing well-spaced teeth, BTW!
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Katie Reply:
June 1st, 2010 at 3:21 am
Linda,
Katie
Wow, thank you for adding a real life testimony! That is awesome. Sounds like a lot of work for my kitchen, though. I guess bran muffins are out, anyway.
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After reading all this about sprouting and phytic acid I just tried sprouting brown rice for the first time. It was really easy and turned out great. I used the instructions from http://www.sproutpeople.com, which I have also found reliable for sprouting all kids of beans. I have a quart size glass wide mouth jar with mesh top sprouter and it has worked well for me.
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I’ve been wondering about soaking grains myself and have going in phases of soaking and no soaking. Thanks for all the insight. However, I think you missed an important piece. The book “Healing with Whole Foods” by Paul Pichford talks about the need to soak grains over night before eating them, and it was published before NT. He talks about the value of each type of grain and the importance of chewing whole grains very well, which we forget to do being so use to flour. Most people can’t even recognize one whole grain from another.
I think it’s very important to realize the energy behind the food as well. I avoid processed food not only because I think it’s unhealthy but what kind of life energy does a food have that was processed by a machine? (white flour)
In my home I only use spelt and Kamut flour, which are great to bake with. But recently am trying to go more GF. I think grains have a very important place in our diet when used correctly.
Also, I wanted to note that I saw alot of people mention that doing extra work to grains is too much work and that is going against the nature of grains. What about foods like yogurt? You have to do a LOT of work to get that, starting with milking a cow. Many foods we eat take a lot of work to consume. Think for a minute about making your own cheese, or raising your own chicken. Sure it looks easy when you buy from the store!
I really hope you read Healing with Whole foods and his great prespective to add to this debate!
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Katie Reply:
June 14th, 2010 at 5:26 pm
Julie S,
Katie
Love the perspective on “too much work!”
Welcome aboard!
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I dunno… Milking a cow seems about like saying that ploughing and sowing and harvesting are part of all the trouble of preparing grain. As far as yoghurt, all you do is put a little of the last batch in and put it in a warm place. Basic cheese making, if you just want cheese, not a specific cheese, is easy. Let the milk stand for a couple of days or add rennet, strain curd, press or not, add salt, age. Takes me about 15 minutes work… maybe… Bread, especially if I do it all by hand, might take half an hour, an hour… I really don’t think soaking and sprouting is a lot of work, btw. Just that other stuff is probably less.
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So… does this tell us anything about grains othe than wheat and its relatives? I’m thrilled that the sourdough bread I make and sometimes buy is just fine without being 100% whole rain. But what about rice? I’m always tempted to use white rice because I love risotto, and white basmati is so much more aromatic than brown. But I usually sigh and make soaked brown rice instead (or cook it for a long time in chicken broth). Also, does this mean that brown rice pasta (Tinkyada) may not be the best choice after all? Thank you!
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Katie Reply:
February 4th, 2011 at 2:37 am
Lydia,
Katie
The entire series does address some other grains. Check out rice here: http://www.kitchenstewardship.com/2010/04/01/phytic-acid-in-rice-reduced-96-with-accelerated-fermentation/
Sarah at http://www.thehealthyhomeeconomist.com/ has a really interesting post about why she chooses white basmati, I think it is, over brown rice. Brown rice pasta is probably about equal in health benefits to whole wheat pasta, unless you have a gluten problem (my unofficial opinion). So much to think about!
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Just in case anyone is subscribed to this old soaking grains post, I wanted to let you know that I’ve reopened the issue with the goal of closing it at KS this Friday. There’s also a little Nutrimill grain mill giveaway going on.
Last fall we tested our grains, I did a recap post on soaking grains, measured pH, and have a soaked recipe ebook coming out for free in about a month.
If you’ve been away, come on back to the party!
Katie
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I personally have been eating a NT/traditional/pseudo-paleo diet for almost half a year, and have been reading and researching all throughout my culinary journey.
One thing that Sally Fallon DOES say in Nourishing Traditions is that she uses unbleached flour for a pie crust every once in a while. What is this telling us? Moderation. It seems to me that many of the NT blogs and such go overboard when it comes to following the “traditional diet.”
A piece of white bread (along with a good amount of grass-fed butter, that is ;D) is not going to hurt someone who regularly eats a healthy diet. I would even argue that indulgence is necessary in order to avoid burn-out and/or “functional eating” (eating what you know is good for you but not necessarily enjoying it) which I have experienced in the past.
As the debate continues, I like to remind myself of one of the healthiest countries. One where sugar and white flour are consumed quite regularly. I believe they had a paradox associated with them…
Oh yes, the French.
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Hallelujah! I just found this in my search for soaking grains as a Biblical practice and it makes so much sense…and it makes things easier! Thanks so much for sharing this. My husband is basically rolling his eyes because I cannot stop researching all of this information. We are detoxing on a 21 day cleansing program and I am learning all about acidic and alkaline foods and put 2 and 2 together as to why wheat is in the acid list….the phytic acid in grains is, well, acid!
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So are talking about going to wally world and buying a bag of Gold Medal white flour and bringing it home and mixing it with my freshly ground organic whole wheat? I can’t picture myself doing that w/o being disgusted with myself. Or are you talking about grinding white wheat and mixing with whole wheat? Ugh! I have buckets and buckets of whole wheat grain. I always intend to learn how to soak, ferment, etc., but time? I’ve tried soaking oatmeal 2 different times and couldn’t eat it. Soaking some now with your recipe to try once again. I do always soak my buckwheat pancake batter and ww buttermilk biscuits…YUM! Didn’t know that salt messes it up though! I buy a premixed bag of buckwheat pancake mix and it already has the salt in it. Can you expound on the salt issue?
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Katie Reply:
October 3rd, 2011 at 10:23 pm
Tosha,
From what I can understand, because phytic acid is a salt itself, and that’s what we’re trying to get to “disconnect” from our whole wheat, having other salts floating around interferes…but I can’t say I retained exactly how that happens in a scientific way, sorry!
However – sometimes I get the salt in there right away and just don’t worry about it. You can’t do it all! Following a soaking recipe for something like pancakes, muffins, even some breads is hardly any more work, you just need the right recipe.
Good luck!
Katie
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“Good Enough” Substitutes | Modern Alternative Mama // Dec 30, 2011 at 2:41 pm
[...] *White bread without preservatives or HFCS [...]
Hi Katie,
You have reached out through your blog and I am thankful for the time and energy that you have spent.
These many insecurities that we westerners have about our food choices are all part of a condition called “the omnivores delimma” where there are few cultural or ancestral traditions to fall back on that would normally give us information on what is healthy eating for our region. We are having to engage our brain more than we normally would in order to eat. The western civilization is very young and still developing its food choices. I hope that all of this experimentation and questioning will help us build a good solid base for our children’s children.
You have probably finished your project on phytates, although I have just begun. Talk about “brain fry”! I, like you, keep coming up on everything sourcing back to that one Fallon book. I have been searching for real studies and so I really appreciate the information you have gathered and organized. The “Big Science” opinion is not the whole picture but it is interesting. It is good for me to remember that though a researcher is a scientist, it doesn’t mean they have researched the actual area in question.
Thanks again.
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Katie Reply:
January 19th, 2012 at 12:52 pm
Leaf,
Thanks! Katie
Actually, I just kind of stalled and threw up my hands in despair! Do let me know if you find anything interesting, please.
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P.S.
I also thought when we look into right eating that we should ask why an old culture processes its food the way it did and whether that process is still relevant with today’s technology? For example, fermenting a food allows it to be stored without refridgeration, the hottest peppers in the world in India kills all sorts of parasites and pathogens, and the bran of a whole food contains the oils which are what become rancid and spoil a grain at room temp–removing the bran containing oils would make sense to be able to store. Maybe the point of why a civilization made its choice is moot because these older preparations seemed to make the food more bio-available as well–the best of two worlds?
Leaf
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http://articles.mercola.com/sites/articles/archive/2012/01/23/wheat-or-rice-as-safe-starch.aspx?e_cid=20120123_DNL_art_1. This is a very informative, easy to understand article that finally explains why “bread” (grains) are to be avoided. This is coming from a gal who has invested in a Bosch, a wheat grinder, and has 3 huge buckets of organic whole wheat kernels!!! My slow road to learning started when a naturopath/iridologist/accupuncturist told me white bread is actually better for you than whole wheat. I thought he was crazy–or just “liked his gooey white bread” too much. I said Jesus ate bread. He said wheat has been changed from back in Bible times. This sparked my interest, even though all of my whole wheat bread making toys at home were telling me to ignore it. I have read lots of things (including this whole, entire blog) since then on the subject and still did not understand. I even read the white rice thing on an article about losing weight. I thought “WHITE rice!” No way! Well, the link above finally cleared it up for me. Bosch, Whispermill, buckets of wheat, lover of bread or not, it really isn’t good for any of us, whether you feel the effects yet or not.
However, there is hope, I did find an article about sourdough bread, that when you let it sour for long enough, it neutralizes all the bad stuff. (my paraphrased version–I probably said that all wrong). Woo! Hoo! There’s hope for my kitchen toys yet! Here’s the sourdough info: http://www.cheeseslave.com/top-10-reasons-to-eat-real-sourdough-bread-even-if-youre-gluten-intolerant/. But what about pasta? (Pout!)
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Katie Reply:
January 30th, 2012 at 2:50 am
Wow, that’s a lot to take in!
(You can make sourdough pasta…)
Thanks for sharing – Katie
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